Zero fret acoustic questions

[Norgermish]

Greetings,
I picked up an old Conqueror model CS 111. A very pretty guitar except for the belly and some scratches on the top, all repairable. This has a zero fret, something I have never owned or worked on. It looks like the zero fret is considerably taller than all the other frets. To check the neck straightness, fret leveling, and neck relief I am wondering would this all be done acting as if the zero fret is the nut? I am going to make a new bridge, and obviously a new saddle but also a nut. It looks like the nut slots are filed down to nearly fret board hieight, so the nut is just a guide for the strings? Not sure if this will work for sharing photos but here is a link.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/HJTE4PraYeBjhYPE6
If link doesn't work I'll try to figure out how later.
Thank you,
Norgermish

[srick]

Hi Norgermish -

Yes - the zero fret is essentially your nut. The actual nut only serves to preserve the string spacing. If your action is good, then leave the zero fret alone. And of course, you can leave the nut alone too.

Zero frets work very well and are very predictable with a minimum of fuss.

Rick

[Norgermish]

Thanks Rick,
It is interesting and will be a learning experience. Hoping I can bring the belly down enough to not need to do a reset.

As far as the nut,
I always thought the nut on a standard neck and fret setup was not only for alignment of strings and string height at first fret but also to allow sound vibration through the neck. Does the zero fret do the same thing?

Action at this point would be horrible and the bridge is not there, so no way of checking it until I get the rest squared away.
I suppose, if it was needed on a zero fret guitar, to lower action at the first fret it would involve shaving the zero fret?

Were you able to see the photos in the link I put up? Just wondering if it worked

[birdsong]

I can see the photos just fine.

[RogerHaggstrom]

A zero fret should be as high as the rest of the frets. It can be just a tad bit higher, but not much.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by Norgermish

Greetings,
I picked up an old Conqueror model CS 111. A very pretty guitar except for the belly and some scratches on the top, all repairable. This has a zero fret, something I have never owned or worked on. It looks like the zero fret is considerably taller than all the other frets. To check the neck straightness, fret leveling, and neck relief I am wondering would this all be done acting as if the zero fret is the nut? I am going to make a new bridge, and obviously a new saddle but also a nut. It looks like the nut slots are filed down to nearly fret board hieight, so the nut is just a guide for the strings? Not sure if this will work for sharing photos but here is a link.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/HJTE4PraYeBjhYPE6
If link doesn't work I'll try to figure out how later.
Thank you,
Norgermish

None of those checks involve the nut. You don't need to consider the zero fret in any of those checks either. The zero fret essentially takes over the functions of the nut with the exception of spacing the strings to their proper positions.

I use zero frets in many of my builds and normally select the next highest fret crown size which provides an additional 4 or 5 thousandths of clearance.

Bob Taylor was asked about zero frets and answered the question in the Ask Bob column in Taylor's "Wood and Steel" publication by saying he liked them but chose not to use them because acoustic guitar players are very conservative in what they will accept.

[srick]

Originally Posted by Norgermish

Thanks Rick,
It is interesting and will be a learning experience. Hoping I can bring the belly down enough to not need to do a reset.

As far as the nut,
I always thought the nut on a standard neck and fret setup was not only for alignment of strings and string height at first fret but also to allow sound vibration through the neck. Does the zero fret do the same thing?

Yes - the zero fret is essentially your nut. But if the top is bellied, no amount of nut\zero fret adjustment will improve the action. Most likely, the action at the first fret is good, otherwise, you'd see big grooves in the zero fret.

I recently restored an old Yamaha guitar and was able to squeak by by shaving the bridge and lowering the saddle. The result was not quite perfect, but it made the guitar playable. That guitar was my first re-fret and by the time I had spent all that money on fretting tools, I wasn't ready to do my first neck reset too <LOL>!

You might consider a JLD 'Bridge Doctor' as a fix too.

Action at this point would be horrible and the bridge is not there, so no way of checking it until I get the rest squared away.

You might be able to get an idea of where you stand by laying an 18 inch straightedge on the frets and placing it over the bridge area. On a guitar that is properly setup, the straight edge will be even with the top of the bridge. On the forementioned Yamaha, it was still a couple or three mm below the bridge. Playable, but not perfect.

Good luck with this. It is a pretty guitar. Removing the necks on Japanese guitars is such a guess. It might be easy or it might turn into a horror show.

best,

Rick

[Fathand]

Originally Posted by Norgermish

Thanks Rick,

As far as the nut,
I always thought the nut on a standard neck and fret setup was not only for alignment of strings and string height at first fret but also to allow sound vibration through the neck. Does the zero fret do the same thing?
d

A nut also stops or intonates the string as a fret does, it will only transfer vibrations through the neck on open/unfretted strings, once the string is fretted, the fret involved will take over that function. The zero fret should transfer any sound through the neck similarly to any other fret. One of the considered advantages of a zero fret is that open strings sound similar to fretted strings as opposed to open strings vibrating on a bone or plastic conventional nut.

[John Arnold]

Any sound transferred through the neck is incidental. For all practical purposes, it is lost energy. Tonal impact comes from the neck's influence on the string, due to the fact that necks are not perfectly rigid.
Typical nut materials like bone are softer than a fret, and tend to warm up the sound of open strings. This effect is subtle, if not completely inaudible.

[Norgermish]

Originally Posted by birdsong

I can see the photos just fine.

Thnaks for letting me know

[Norgermish]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

None of those checks involve the nut. You don't need to consider the zero fret in any of those checks either. The zero fret essentially takes over the functions of the nut with the exception of spacing the strings to their proper positions.

I use zero frets in many of my builds and normally select the next highest fret crown size which provides an additional 4 or 5 thousandths of clearance.

Bob Taylor was asked about zero frets and answered the question in the Ask Bob column in Taylor's "Wood and Steel" publication by saying he liked them but chose not to use them because acoustic guitar players are very conservative in what they will accept.

Thank you for the info.
Zero fret understood, once I get this guitar in playing condition again, I'll understand more about it. My calipers are down in the garage but when I did put a straight edge on the frets it looked like the zero fret was considerably higher, maybe .020". That is kinda why I was questioning it.
Again thank you

[Norgermish]

Originally Posted by srick

Yes - the zero fret is essentially your nut. But if the top is bellied, no amount of nut\zero fret adjustment will improve the action. Most likely, the action at the first fret is good, otherwise, you'd see big grooves in the zero fret.

I recently restored an old Yamaha guitar and was able to squeak by by shaving the bridge and lowering the saddle. The result was not quite perfect, but it made the guitar playable. That guitar was my first re-fret and by the time I had spent all that money on fretting tools, I wasn't ready to do my first neck reset too <LOL>!

You might consider a JLD 'Bridge Doctor' as a fix too.


You might be able to get an idea of where you stand by laying an 18 inch straightedge on the frets and placing it over the bridge area. On a guitar that is properly setup, the straight edge will be even with the top of the bridge. On the forementioned Yamaha, it was still a couple or three mm below the bridge. Playable, but not perfect.

Good luck with this. It is a pretty guitar. Removing the necks on Japanese guitars is such a guess. It might be easy or it might turn into a horror show.

best,

Rick

As far as the belly it needs a T.J. Thompson treatment or maybe two. I have been rehydrating it slowly for a couple weeks now.
A bit of back story, a couple years ago I broke my chord hand wrist pretty badly. Due to hand position now my guitar playing days are pretty much toast. I can still play but not very well. After 36 years of playing it makes it very difficult to not have one in my hands. So I took my 30+ years of machining experience and tranferred it to learning to repair guitars, all acoustics. Buying cheap guitars and taking them apart, putting threm back together, and making them playable again.
Enjoying it, and have given a few away to neighborhood kids, to learn to play.

So thanks for the input,
Much appreciated

[srick]

Originally Posted by Norgermish

As far as the belly it needs a T.J. Thompson treatment or maybe two.

Great idea!

I have just gotten the repair bug having retired from 41 years in dentistry. My dental skills mesh very well with luthiery skills. And of course, it’s all about the diagnosis and problem solving - that’s the best part. It’s also nice that my livelihood doesn’t depend on repairing guitars and the stakes are low.

Have fun! As I say, that’s a pretty guitar.

[Jamolay]

Originally Posted by srick

Great idea!

I have just gotten the repair bug having retired from 41 years in dentistry. My dental skills mesh very well with luthiery skills. And of course, it’s all about the diagnosis and problem solving - that’s the best part. It’s also nice that my livelihood doesn’t depend on repairing guitars and the stakes are low.

Have fun! As I say, that’s a pretty guitar.

Wow, a dentist actually confirming that dentistry is just like carpentry.[emoji12]

[srick]

Originally Posted by Jamolay

Wow, a dentist actually confirming that dentistry is just like carpentry.[emoji12]

Considering some of the amazing woodwork that I’ve seen throughout this world, I’ll take that as a compliment!