A Very Disappointing Linda Manzer Guitar

[Kindness]

I just had my guitars in with my tech. He has a Linda Manzer in there that a guy spent $15k on. I could not believe how plain the guitar was, with wood that just didn't jump out a bit. To me, when you spend this much money, the guitar should be drop dead gorgeous.

The sound stunk, but understandable, when you do not humidify a guitar, it kills any chance of good sound. Proper humidity is critical. I have learned that my guitars in this climate are best sounding at 40 degrees humidity.

I was expecting so much more.

[Kevin A]

Originally Posted by itself

I just had my guitars in with my tech. He has a Linda Manzer in there that a guy spent $15k on. I could not believe how plain the guitar was, with wood that just didn't jump out a bit. To me, when you spend this much money, the guitar should be drop dead gorgeous.

The sound stunk, but understandable, when you do not humidify a guitar, it kills any chance of good sound. Proper humidity is critical. I have learned that my guitars in this climate are best sounding at 40 degrees humidity.

I was expecting so much more.

The sound is hampered, it seems, by improper humidification, which can choke the sound out of any guitar regardless of price.
$15k doesnt necessarily buy bling or extra-fancy, hit-you-in-face, uber-figured wood. In this instance, one is paying for expertise, talent and knowledge,of which this luthier has substantial, and relying on her abilities to craft a wonderful instrument with woods she deems fit—regardless of 'fanciness.' I'm fairly certain it didnt leave her shop with 'stinky' sound.

[mrkpower]

Originally Posted by itself

I just had my guitars in with my tech. He has a Linda Manzer in there that a guy spent $15k on. I could not believe how plain the guitar was, with wood that just didn't jump out a bit. To me, when you spend this much money, the guitar should be drop dead gorgeous.

The sound stunk, but understandable, when you do not humidify a guitar, it kills any chance of good sound. Proper humidity is critical. I have learned that my guitars in this climate are best sounding at 40 degrees humidity.

I was expecting so much more.

The most important thing is "How does the owner think?"

[mjz]

I've always thought guitars sound their best just before they are about to crack due to dryness. Never thought of under-humidifaction as choking sound. Too wet maybe. But too dry??

max

[JoeCharter]

For $15K, I would expect a plain Manzer indeed.

[Kevin A]

Originally Posted by mjz

Too wet maybe. But too dry??

max

Could be either one of those issues....

[M Sarad]

I played one Manzer. It was tight and clunky sounding. It came with a large ziplock bag of shavings from the top braces. It was a guitar she had built for Pat Metheney to withstand the rigors of touring. The guy that had to have it sent it to another luthier to shave the braces and then unloaded it PDQ.

[Kindness]

Originally Posted by Kevin A

The sound is hampered, it seems, by improper humidification, which can choke the sound out of any guitar regardless of price.
$15k doesnt necessarily buy bling or extra-fancy, hit-you-in-face, uber-figured wood. In this instance, one is paying for expertise, talent and knowledge,of which this luthier has substantial, and relying on her abilities to craft a wonderful instrument with woods she deems fit—regardless of 'fanciness.' I'm fairly certain it didnt leave her shop with 'stinky' sound.

The expertise and brilliant ability of Diana at Phoenix Guitar Co is definitely someone I have come to respect. And I don't have to pay a Mercedes price to get a Mercedes guitar!!

[rgregg48]

I remember a friend of mine playing a Petros,, that was drop dead gorgeous
but the tone, was very unremarkable.
I personally have never played a Olsen that sent me,, but im in the minority
on that one.
I owned a dread made by John Greven many years ago,,
Had lots of bass, but the treble had a stuffed nose.

Point is, all builders put out a less than their best instrument now and then.
and of course one mans discontent is another mans treasure.

Rick

[min7b5]

Originally Posted by Kevin A

$15k doesnt necessarily buy bling or extra-fancy, hit-you-in-face, uber-figured wood. In this instance, one is paying for expertise, talent and knowledge,of which this luthier has substantial, and relying on her abilities to craft a wonderful instrument with woods she deems fit—regardless of 'fanciness.' I'm fairly certain it didnt leave her shop with 'stinky' sound.

That's a good point. Seems like the steelsting market in particular is very demanding in terms of fancy woodworking, figure, finish, etc. in the classsical world it pretty common to see very expensive guitars that are pretty plain, and sometimes fairly rough around the edges.

[RiloKiley]

Originally Posted by rgregg48

I remember a friend of mine playing a Petros,, that was drop dead gorgeous
but the tone, was very unremarkable.
I personally have never played a Olsen that sent me,, but im in the minority
on that one.
I owned a dread made by John Greven many years ago,,
Had lots of bass, but the treble had a stuffed nose.

Point is, all builders put out a less than their best instrument now and then.
and of course one mans discontent is another mans treasure.

Rick

If you're charging more then $5k for a guitar, I can't fathom how you can put out an inferior instrument. It's just not acceptable. I can appreciate that tone and playability are subjective to a certain extent, but most players will agree on build quality and quality of tone, even if their personal preference doesn't perfectly correspond.

I have no issue with high priced guitars, and I have purchased them myself, and my last high end guitar was an absolute steal, I couldn't be happier.

That being said, if you're charging a lot for a guitar, it has to be justified. If I bought a high end guitar that was of inferior quality, the excuse of inconsistency on the part of the builder just doesn't hold up. Sorry, but you can't charge huge amounts for a guitar, put out an inferior product and then claim it was an off day.

I appreciate luthiers aren't perfect, but if you're at that price point and you make a crappy guitar, the good luthiers will scrape it and start over again, knowing that their reputation is on the line with every instrument they put out.

[Wade Hampton]

Speaking as someone who has been around the fine custom guitar world since the mid-1970's, what a lot of people fail to realize is that all these custom instruments are, when all is said and done, is just very nice guitars. The tone of expensive hand-built guitars will vary from one example to the next just as any other all solid wood guitar will vary.

I've met Linda Manzer a few times, played a few of her guitars, and I have a great deal of respect for her and her work. But, truthfully, I've liked most of the guitars built by Charlie Hoffman that I've played more than the Manzer guitars I've had my hands on. (Charlie's guitars are not nearly as expensive as Linda's, but once you ascend to this quality level, that's almost irrelevant. It depends on market forces at that point...)

It may well be that Charlie's guitars are just voiced in such a way that they suit my playing better than Linda's do. Charlie builds in a sort of traditional Americana sort of style that takes the best from both Martin and Gibson traditions, and that's definitely more my ballpark than some other building styles I've encountered.

To carry the idea of voicing a bit further, the well-known (and well-liked) guitar builder Kathi Wingert told me one time that the first time she heard a guitar built for me by Roy McAlister she was appalled - she thought it was a really dead-sounding guitar. Then she heard me play it, and she couldn't believe how accurately Roy had responded to my playing style and how good the guitar sounded in my hands.

Roy had dialed in the guitar very precisely to respond to the sort of G-forces I was going to inflict on it. Kathi didn't like the guitar when she played it, but it sounded like a completely different instrument in my hands.

That might be EXACTLY the issue here. Linda might have voiced that guitar in a very specific way for an individual player. In my experience, the more specific you make that, the less universal it becomes. The OP might simply have had the wrong touch for that guitar.

Even so, there's another issue here, and that is that expectations of these custom guitars get so elevated that they cannot be met by a mere guitar made of earthly materials like wood and fret wire. I've seen sentiments expressed in these forum discussions to the effect that ANY hand-built guitar, made by ANY established hand-builder, is ALWAYS going to be a better guitar than any factory-built guitar, even high quality production line guitars like Martin or Collings.

That assertion is so completely foolish that my jaw always drops open when I read it, because anyone who's been around custom guitars ought to know better than that. Plenty of clunkers (or, more politely, "guitars that don't quite reach their hoped-for tonal aspirations,") get built by hand-builders who charge an arm and a leg for them.

It isn't necessarily the fault of the builder, either: plenty of clients insist on momentarily fashionable tonewoods that might not actually be the best choice for the tone they claim to want, and then - even though they've never built a guitar themselves - insist on dictating every single dimension of the guitar, right down to the size of the braces.

Some dot.com zillionaire in Silicon Valley isn't going to stop being a complete control freak simply because he doesn't happen to know anything about the subject.....

Yes, it's the responsibility of the builder to create a fine guitar, despite whatever ridiculous demands the client might make, but in many of these cases there's only so much they can do. The client wants incredibly expensive Oingo Boingo wood back and sides even though this other tonewood will probably give him better results? Oh, well....The client insists on a lavishly bear-claw figured top, even though this plainer top from another species of spruce would probably give him a much better sound? Oh, well....

So it goes. There are a great many extremely expensive hand-built guitars out there that are really not much more than very careful mediocrities. The materials are impeccable, the workmanship is beyond precise, but not all of them come together as great musical instruments. And ninety nine times out of a hundred it's because of demands from the client that have far more to do with ego than with musicality.

Then sometimes, too, the materials are all chosen for the right reasons and the client has been properly respectful of all the boundaries, and the guitar still fails to be musically impressive.

Sometimes it's just a crapshoot, and that's all there is to it.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

[blue-wily-fox]

I also played one of hers at the Healdsburg guitar show.......BEAUTIFUL workmanship (or workwomanship).but the sound was ho-hum...this particular guitar was $25,000.......ahem......I really couldn't believe it....very disappointing....

[royd]

I have played some guitars that other folk loved... and didn't do anything for me. I play Lowdens and love them... and every now and then someone posts here that they just don't get why anyone would spend $5K on a Lowden... bottom line is that we all hear things differently and search for different things. Just because one of us doesn't care for a Manzer doesn't mean it is "stinky," it just means it isn't our taste. Obviously there are folk out there who think her guitars are the bee's knees or they wouldn't be priced so high.

Isn't it wonderful to live in this time when there are soooo many well built choices in acoustic guitars? Each of us can find guitars that we love.

[Doug Young]

This thread seems to assume there's a consistent definition of a good tone that everyone agrees on. One person's "disappointment" is someone else's perfect instrument. If a builder builds a guitar, even if it didn't turn out exactly how they wanted, someone will come along for whom it's the sound they've been waiting for all their life. Personally, I think there are very few really bad guitars, only guitars that don't fit someone's preconceived notion of how it should sound. If it makes a sound, someone can probably make some cool music with it, as long as they approach it with an open mind and figure out what it's good for, or learn how to get a sound out of it.

There's also the huge player component. The most disappointing-sounding guitar I've ever heard was Martin Simpson's Sobell - when I played it. I'm generally happy with the sound I can pull out of most guitars. Not that one. Didn't sound any better when when some others tried it either. BUT, it sounds absolutely glorious when Martin plays it. So is it the best guitar out there, or the worst? Depends on who's got their hands on it.