Superior Drummer 3 training?

[b1j]

Home recording has brought me face to face with a number of small hills to climb. Today I can confidently set up a paneled space and know at least one or two reliable ways to place mics and set preamp gain for distances between 9” and 24”. I know a bit about how various string attacks will sound and an appropriate target on the fader for lots of signal and lots of headroom for the mastering to follow. I can jigger EQ, simple compression, and basic reverb through sends and busses to achieve a “pretty good” mix. I know enough about mastering to steer clear of it (for now, at least) but also to make a master-ready mix.

Goodness knows, many more improvements lie ahead of me with these skills, but I’ve broken free of the doubt and uncertainty I felt two years ago about whether anything I’m doing will sound decent. I’ve cleared that initial milestone.

Looking ahead, I’m facing inertia in getting to my first milestone with drums. I’ve used Superior Drummer 3 in a very rudimentary fashion a few times, but the results have been weak at best. I see creating worthy drum tracks as a building block skill, and I’d like to take it on as my next milestone.

With my other hobbies, I’ve learned best when I’m side by side and hands-on with an expert who knows how to teach. I wish I knew of a resource who could show me how to create VI drums from scratch. I bought SD3 because I reasoned that its sound sets are of high quality. I need my initial breakthrough so I can get under the hood and make it work “well enough” for me.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by b1j

Looking ahead, I’m facing inertia in getting to my first milestone with drums. I’ve used Superior Drummer 3 in a very rudimentary fashion a few times, but the results have been weak at best. I see creating worthy drum tracks as a building block skill, and I’d like to take it on as my next milestone.

I've programmed up a number of drum tracks, even though I'm not a drummer. MIDI editing in a DAW is pretty simple. Choose the note (or corresponding drum sound), place it on the beat you want it, adjust the velocity ("strength of hit") as needed. What I think it does require, though, is some understanding of how a drummer plays. You can't hit three things at once, or two things at once with the same hand, you can program beats that might be impossible for a real drummer. So you have to keep that in mind.

I often start with a basic beat from a library or snippet, often within the VI drum program itself, and tweak if from there. Other times, I can't find something canned that is close and will go from scratch.

Are you concerned about the mechanics of MIDI editing, or creating "realistic" drum parts?

[b1j]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

I've programmed up a number of drum tracks, even though I'm not a drummer. MIDI editing in a DAW is pretty simple. Choose the note (or corresponding drum sound), place it on the beat you want it, adjust the velocity ("strength of hit") as needed. What I think it does require, though, is some understanding of how a drummer plays. You can't hit three things at once, or two things at once with the same hand, you can program beats that might be impossible for a real drummer. So you have to keep that in mind.

I often start with a basic beat from a library or snippet, often within the VI drum program itself, and tweak if from there. Other times, I can't find something canned that is close and will go from scratch.

Are you concerned about the mechanics of MIDI editing, or creating "realistic" drum parts?

I want to see if I can make drum tracks that sound like drummer made them. Not complex or flashy, just ones that feel like they belong in the song.

[Rumblefish]

I chose EZDrummer 3 for this very reason. Programming drums makes my brain hurt.

[b1j]

Originally Posted by Rumblefish

I chose EZDrummer 3 for this very reason. Programming drums makes my brain hurt.

Sounds like I overlooked the “EZ” part.

[jim1960]

The key to things like this is to figure out a workflow that makes sense for you. So that's going to mean trying different things to see what makes your brain smile.

If you're going to do drums AFTER the tracks are recorded, it's critical to record to a click track or, if you're going to not use a click, perform quantization which, in my experience, can introduce some weirdness depending on the contents of the track being manipulated.

My own method is to map out the song by doing a section by section scratch track and as I complete each section, I create a very basic drum track for that section. It can be a bit tedious but it's what works for me. When I get the basic drum track done, I go back and re-record the guitar and vocal tracks, then I redo the drum track, then I dub in whatever other instruments I'm going to include in the song.

[b1j]

Originally Posted by jim1960

The key to things like this is to figure out a workflow that makes sense for you. So that's going to mean trying different things to see what makes your brain smile.

If you're going to do drums AFTER the tracks are recorded, it's critical to record to a click track or, if you're going to not use a click, perform quantization which, in my experience, can introduce some weirdness depending on the contents of the track being manipulated.

My own method is to map out the song by doing a section by section scratch track and as I complete each section, I create a very basic drum track for that section. It can be a bit tedious but it's what works for me. When I get the basic drum track done, I go back and re-record the guitar and vocal tracks, then I redo the drum track, then I dub in whatever other instruments I'm going to include in the song.

Yes, I expect that workflow will be key. I don’t need to do it like the pros do it; I need to develop a way that works for me. I’d like to sit with someone who knows SD3 and uses it efficiently, so I can learn how to do it on my own. I’m not sure how to find someone like that.

[runamuck]

Have you checked youtube videos?

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by runamuck

Have you checked youtube videos?

I was going to suggest similar. Sometimes, the best way to learn how to do something is to just dive in and start doing it, rather than trying to learn everything before you even start. I know different people learn differently and that method can feel out of some people's comfort zone (including mine, at times) but I feel like you're making programming drums way more complicated than it really is.

The internet is a huge resource for learning this way. Search for "tutorial" or "basics" or "getting started" vids if you don't even know where to start. Once you get rolling and have something simple, keep going until you hit a sticking point, then search for that particular thing to find out how to do it. Continue on until the next sticking point, etc. That way, you also don't waste time learning about features you don't care about.

I took this approach to learning After Effects, which is a hugely complicated program. Had I tried to learn everything before diving in, I never would have gotten started. By the end (it took months!) I had an animated video I was proud of, and understood After Effects far better than I might have otherwise.

In this case, you might be better served "learning by doing".

[b1j]

Yes, the Internet.

It’s not what I’d call “one on one.”

But it might be all we have left these days.

I’ve watched maybe 30 of Mike Luke’s extensive series on YouTube. That’s given me a look inside the way a drummer and SD3 expert gets results. It’s like parachuting into the middle of a work in progress.

To take a line from my original post, “With my other hobbies, I’ve learned best when I’m side by side and hands-on with an expert who knows how to teach.”

To that I’ll add, “…and with whom I can have a back-and-forth Q and A conversation.”

Color me 1950s, I guess.

Oh, hold on: there’s a kid on my lawn.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by b1j

That’s given me a look inside the way a drummer and SD3 expert gets results. It’s like parachuting into the middle of a work in progress.

Is part of your trepidation being unsure of what kind of drum loop/rhythm/pattern (whatever you want to call the midi segments in SD3) should go where? Being a non-drummer, that was my biggest hurdle and it left me unsure of the entire process for a while.

[b1j]

Originally Posted by jim1960

Is part of your trepidation being unsure of what kind of drum loop/rhythm/pattern (whatever you want to call the midi segments in SD3) should go where? Being a non-drummer, that was my biggest hurdle and it left me unsure of the entire process for a while.

Yes, in part. But there’s a larger hump to get over in general. I never seem to be able to choose a “groove” that captures the feel I want in a song. Rather than labor in isolation, I’d like to explain what I’m looking for to someone who’s proficient in SD3, and, with guidance, build some muscle memory for the steps to go through.

The first stage of this journey is to be able to work with grooves available in the program.

Level 1: Get into the ballpark with choosing a sequence of grooves for a song. Be able to make simple adjustments to shape the feel.

Level 2: Develop an efficient workflow to direct the instruments through the DAW and mix for balance and tone.

That would take me a long way! Beyond that, a pipe dream I have is to be able to collaborate with my brother in Maryland who has an e-drum kit. Send him a draft of a mix and have him play live into it. Then render his performance into SD3’s sound sets. But that is way down the road. Maybe it’s more attainable than I suspect? A trainer could help me answer that.

[Acousticado]

I know what you want to do and appreciate the hurdles it takes to get there, if ever, when it comes to instruments we don’t play or understand. Thus, my AI thread. In case you didn’t read it and it may interest you, in that thread, Doug had suggested an interesting and viable option, which is what you eluded to by remotely involving your brother...

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Another approach is to get others to play on your tracks remotely. Fiverr has tons of players who are happy to overdub tracks for you for a fairly modest fee. AirGigs is another site dedicated to this. You just specify your project, provide a chart if you can, tell them what you want, etc, and they quote you a price. Can be as low as $10 or $20 for something simple.

I've used several people on these sites and it all worked well. Very efficient, and the results were excellent. My son does it for his alternative rock stuff all the time as well. There are people on these sites that range from another guy in his bedroom (who of course might be very good...) to pros in name bands.

p.s. I assume they do this as work for hire, and agree to take no ownership in your original song, despite what unique licks they may contribute...but I don’t know.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by b1j

Yes, in part. But there’s a larger hump to get over in general. I never seem to be able to choose a “groove” that captures the feel I want in a song.

That seems less related to SD3 or EZDrummer or whatever software you are using, and more related to understanding how a drum part works. The mechanics of typing in a MIDI note on the beat you want is pretty simple. Maybe what you really want are drum lessons?

[b1j]

Originally Posted by Acousticado

I know what you want to do and appreciate the hurdles it takes to get there, if ever, when it comes to instruments we don’t play or understand. Thus, my AI thread. In case you didn’t read it and it may interest you, in that thread, Doug had suggested an interesting and viable option, which is what you eluded to by remotely involving your brother...



p.s. I assume they do this as work for hire, and agree to take no ownership in your original song, despite what unique licks they may contribute...but I don’t know.

Tom, I did move through part of your AI thread, but I moved over to this topic to avoid hijacking yours. Thanks for drawing my attention to Doug’s suggestion.

Collaborating remotely is another link in the chain. I actually did it with vocals on two of my songs, but the singer handled the heavy lifting. I’ll look into how to do that efficiently. While my brother is far from a professional, he does have a keen innate musical sense, so it would be part of the fun to have him playing. We’re not pros, after all.

A key question is whether he needs to have Superior Drummer 3, or can he somehow send me the MIDI information from his performance for me to take it from there. I wonder if all the voicing needs to be done with the e-drum kit and SD3 in the same room. Or maybe he can label the parts to help me stitch everything into SD. Lots to learn.