The insanity of the car market....

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by Murphy Slaw

I'm a Mopar (Dodge/Ram) truck guy, but my wife has a Subaru Forester Wilderness that I drive when we take road trips. It's a cool car except for the multiple "Nanny" beeps that go off all the time to "warn" you of everything under the sun.

And the dealership "upsells" when you go to get an oil change is making the cost of ownership annoyingly high. We may not get another one because of those.

Those are universal complaints now. Beyond what we own - embarrassed to say 4 vehicles thanks to kids - is our work fleet with more brands and vehicles. The Stellantis in fleet and recent rentals I've had seem particularly full of blinking and beeps.

More and more I look forward to no dealers. I'm shopping for a work grade pickup and those options mean conventional dealers and I'm horribly frustrated by a lack of simplicity, and how many with 4 doors are 5.5 and 5 ft beds.

[AX17609]

I don't know if the car market is "insane", but it sure is different. We buy BMW and Toyota. BMW seems to have lost their business focus and now markets something like 19 different models. I can't keep them all straight. Toyota sells far fewer models, but they don't have any inventory. You're expected to order a car sight unseen and either accept or reject it when delivered. Until this whole ICE vs EV vs HEV vs PHEV business gets sorted out, I'm going to stay on the sidelines.

[Gromitspapa]

I was considering leasing a Toyota bZ4X (EV) about 6 months ago and went another way. Earlier this month there were 10-12K mile/year leases for about $150-200/month with $2K up front. I would have laid low for that.

[fitness1]

Originally Posted by Gromitspapa

Earlier this month there were 10-12K mile/year leases for about $150-200/month with $2K up front. I would have laid low for that.

Dang - I'm moving to your neck of the woods....monthly payments here for almost anything are double that with the same terms.

[imwjl]

From our R2 reservation and likely brands we own I've been polled twice now. It has be excited to not just ditch the traditional sales method but for the R2 and R3 vehicles.

About 9 minutes in is the really neat all seats folding flat. The storage and all windows open fully is pretty neat. The plastics posts we have here? They use recycled ocean plastics and do a wood product upcycling for interior.

Since the initial release news there have been some posts with working versions of R2 and R3 and the R3 looks fantastic.

How much of the vehicle really is domestic is interesting. Beyond made in the heartland (Normal, IL) the CEO even seems quite normal LOL. I can't say if we'll exercise our reservation more than a year out but I sure hope this firm makes it including their innovative vans that will no longer be exclusive to Amazon.

Direct sales, practical products, innovation, I hope they succeed.

On that polling, it is really evident they are considering a modest version of a long range dual motor, and an Android/CarPlay dash. I'd happily take 300+ mile dual motors not wicked quick to achieve the price and range.

Both the R2 and R3 make sense for our future.

[AX17609]

I'm not convinced Rivian is going to be around a heck of a lot longer. Share price is down 93% since initial release. Their P/E ratio is zero because they've got no E. I thought with the Amazon delivery truck order that they'd be doing a lot better, but they're not. I've seen exactly one on the road.

[rule18]

Originally Posted by Murphy Slaw

I'm a Mopar (Dodge/Ram) truck guy, but my wife has a Subaru Forester Wilderness that I drive when we take road trips. It's a cool car except for the multiple "Nanny" beeps that go off all the time to "warn" you of everything under the sun.

And the dealership "upsells" when you go to get an oil change is making the cost of ownership annoyingly high. We may not get another one because of those.

I too have a Ram (I think you know that ;-) ) as well as a late model Subaru and Toyota. We've had very different experiences than yours with the two car dealers. They're both owned by the same family and we've always had good interactions. Even when something goes wrong on their part, they work pretty hard to get it right. These guys don't try to up sell too much, it's a great method of losing customers. It's really a crap shoot, we got lucky with our local dealers.

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by AX17609

I'm not convinced Rivian is going to be around a heck of a lot longer. Share price is down 93% since initial release. Their P/E ratio is zero because they've got no E. I thought with the Amazon delivery truck order that they'd be doing a lot better, but they're not. I've seen exactly one on the road.

There are lots of the Amazon Rivian vans by me but this is a metro area with good infrastructure, planning and prosperity.

I sure hope they make it even if we don't buy one. It is a good and innovative product line they are trying to get to market. The Rivian where I work is a good product. The quality is very good if compared to the Stellantis, GM and Ford in the fleet.

It would sure help all of us and Rivian if all 50s states changed the laws protecting the dealers. A lot of how sales are done is antiquated and inefficient.

[AX17609]

Today was one of those days when I thought I saw the future. Lacking anything better to do I went over to the Toyota dealer and drove a few RAV4s.

The ICE version was forgettable, with an engine that sounded like a lawn mower. The Hybrid was slow. But, the PHEV, the so-called "Prime" was a wonder. Holy smokes, what a car! It drives like a BMW with a Toyota body. I don't know how they integrated the power train, but the electric part kicks in like a turbo-charger. Step on the gas, and you get instantaneous acceleration. As for handling, I drove it on rain slick roads and it was fine with a nice tight turning radius.

I really had no idea the RAV4 Prime was this good. Set aside all the supposed environment benefits, and I'd buy this car on performance alone. Toyota is going to sell a zillion of these things.

[imwjl]

I'm making the argument for just as insane or maybe more but different symptoms now.

One side of the market is desirable and top rated vehicles with months out to get them. In addition to that are items and additional charges added on. The other side is a surprising amount of 2023 models still available June 1, 2024 with up to $20,000 of discounts and incentives not selling them.

With our looking at very different types and needs it is also interesting to see the sales problems are hardly EVs as many say. It is very much looking like we might have reached peak Jeep and fancy pickup.

My search for a long bed more basic cloth seats pickup with locking rear axle is tough. If I wanted a short bed pavement pansy that won't hold my 6 ft ladder I'd have choice, big discounts and even 0% interest for 72 months.

Very close to home is some funny to me family or marriage math. My wife has no interest in the basic work oriented pickups I'm considering for my first retirement project of razing and rebuilding our cabin, but she sure surprised me with her interest in the new also hard to get Land Cruiser 1958 edition. That could mean I keep renting work pickups and trailers that might eventually be towed by a jointly owned Land Cruiser.

At the moment I am thinking to put this all off some more.

[Birdbrain]

Originally Posted by AX17609

Today was one of those days when I thought I saw the future. Lacking anything better to do I went over to the Toyota dealer and drove a few RAV4s.

The ICE version was forgettable, with an engine that sounded like a lawn mower. The Hybrid was slow. But, the PHEV, the so-called "Prime" was a wonder. Holy smokes, what a car! It drives like a BMW with a Toyota body. I don't know how they integrated the power train, but the electric part kicks in like a turbo-charger. Step on the gas, and you get instantaneous acceleration. As for handling, I drove it on rain slick roads and it was fine with a nice tight turning radius.

I really had no idea the RAV4 Prime was this good. Set aside all the supposed environment benefits, and I'd buy this car on performance alone. Toyota is going to sell a zillion of these things.

Hybrids have been "this good" for at least a decade now. Your description matches the 2014 Ford C-Max Hybrid i used to have. Electric torque is instantly available; how long does your power drill take to reach speed? This means, effectively, that the car is always in the right gear to go.

Anyone considering a Rav4 should take a test drive in the back seat. The rental Rav4 I got was very noisy. I measured 80Db peaks while riding in the back seat. It was road noise, mainly. Perhaps they put some sound insulation in the higher trims.

[Birdbrain]

Originally Posted by fitness1

Except then you have to deal with those things in the service department

I have a friend who was going to drive his '02 Forester "till the wheels fall off." Then a wheel fell off, while driving! He was OK, but it must have been an upsetting experience. His semi-new Forester, 15 years newer, has many safety features that were absent in his old one: side air bags, head air bags, antilock brakes, and a much stronger body.

When cars are concerned, there can be much worse outcomes than spending too much. In my city, driving is much more hazardous than it was a few decades ago. Our vehicles are bigger and heavier, and we drive faster, often impaired and distracted. Just something else to think about here.

[Birdbrain]

Originally Posted by SFCRetired

I would rather have a root canal than go to a dealer and buy a car. From my experience car dealers are the least trustworthy people I have ever encountered. Worse than a pawn shop and that's saying something.

There are many workarounds to this persistent complaint. Independent car-buying brokers will negotiate a deal for you at no (direct) cost. I hear that Costco has a car-buying service for its members. Just look around...

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by Birdbrain

There are many workarounds to this persistent complaint. Independent car-buying brokers will negotiate a deal for you at no (direct) cost. I hear that Costco has a car-buying service for its members. Just look around...

Subaru has VIP discount similar to the historical family discounts for auto workers. That was easiest true bargain ever. I named the dealer and went in with my letter that matched what Subaru sent them. A no haggle discount better than COSTCO or anyone I know.

In my case IMBA (mountain biking assoc) membership that's only $39 a year. In addition to the bargain Subaru gives back to IMBA too so it helps develop trails on public lands.