#31
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A nice summary of the evolution of the neck joint, Charles! A bit of background on the neck joint I use... It originated from a design by Gerard Gilet who engineered one of the first bolt-on necks, but it had a glued down fretboard extension. Gerard came up with the square brass rod idea, which basically runs up the guts of the heel. It's square so it doesn't wedge the wood and split it as round inserts (barrel bolts, dowels, etc.) are inclined to do. I'd post a pic, but have to put it on another site first... Anyway, if you look at the heel cap of a guitar and imagine a 3/8" square hole in the middle of it, heading for the fretboard, that's where the brass rod is (or aluminium if you want to take some weight out) that the screws thread in to. I couldn't see the point of a bolt-on with glue, so made another tenon for the neck extension. It looks a lot more complicated to build than it actually is. The tilt neck (user adjustable neck angle) idea has been around since the 19th century, or maybe before, but Johan Stauffer (who CF Martin I apprenticed under) was an early adopter, if not the originator, of the idea. Here's a pic of one by Martin de Witte which follows the Stauffer concept fairly closely: My implementation of the design follows the same broad concepts, but, as ever, the differences are in the engineering of the details. Here's some pics of what I do: There are more pics under "Small Body Classical" in the photo gallery on my website. This doesn't need tools to adjust the action and is quite easy to build (that's the real secret!) and can be easily (re-)adjusted for yaw, roll and string length (by the builder) with just pitch being user adjustable. Quote:
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#32
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I appreciate so many colorful Australian expressions. Here's an American expression that applies: HLY MACKERAL!!! What a fine piece of engineering, and thanks for clarifying location and other details regarding your square brass (or aluminum) rod. I applaud your decision to include the second mortise-and-tenon and hardware to 1) facilitate tool-free neck-angle adjustment and 2) avoid gluing the fretboard to the guitar's top. For me, this is the ONLY way to go. Being able to remove the neck without "glue issues" is the obvious choice, and while I consider it HUGELY important, it seems you've reduced this factor to a "peripheral benefit" because the blessings of your adjustable neck angle seem to render the need for tradition neck resets moot. Instead of the old adage, "kill two birds with one stone", I think you've killed two birds by dropping a refrigerator on them! Man!!! Charles said your writings constitute the current state of the art. ICANDIGGIT! I don't want to unearth any proprietary information, but IF it's not too revealing, can you clarify the following? In your photos there appears to be a dark binding where the neck proper (more or less in line with its tenon face) meets the neck's heal. When the neck is adjusted, it must move in relation to the body, so a "gap" probably occurs somewhere... The illustration below only guesses at the internal workings and the point of rotation. The second view is exaggerated, but by chance, is this what occurs when adjusting the neck backward in relation to the guitar body? Or does movement occur somehow at that dark binding strip across the neck/heal structure. If you prefer not to answer, and/or if you want me to remove the illustration, just tell me and I'll do so immediately. I don't need to know everything about how this works, but I'd like to understand it for future reference - mostly because I'll find it impossible to commit to purchasing any other expensive guitar after seeing this. And as for picking one up in Oz, I would have to play one first - so can you build mine in whatever length of time I'd be allowed to stay on a visitor/guest visa? I'm just kidding; I'm sure I couldn't stay long at all. But if you don't mind, I'll email you with serious questions via your website. Thanks very much for your contributions here. |
#33
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Tom, I do appreciate your enthusiasm for Trevor's superb guitars, but given that he lives in Oz and you are in the US , it may be worthwhile contacting a US builder who offers the facility which you seek.
Kent Chasson also makes guitars with an adjustable neck angle ... and is also a AGF sponsor, although not a prolific poster. It would be a bit of a hike from Nebraska to Washington, but not as far as from USA to OZ. |
#34
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Until recently I played only one acoustic guitar for several decades - the Gurian in question. I'm interested in other guitars now only because I realize now how much easier it is to play a wider neck. So I have no idea "who makes what" here in the US, or anywhere else. I'll look into Kent Chasson (and others) as you suggest, assuming any build guitars with an adjustable neck similar to Trevor Gore's. Frankly, Mr Gore's design (to the extent I understand it) seems like the answer to most, if not all, the neck-related problems that affect so many acoustic guitars - particularly the USED guitars you and I buy online and then spend $70 to return ship. I'm a fan of things Australian, and "guitar ownership" is a serious matter - so a truly exceptional Australian guitar would be "a lifetime instrument" for me. I might well be willing to go above and beyond to obtain that. Of course, it'll be a lot easier if a custom/boutique builder is represented by at least one dealer in the United States. Realistically, by the time I'm ready to buy, I'm pretty sure I'll know what to buy. |
#35
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I should also say in a sort of non professional promotional way that I would not build a guitar without a tilt neck and although mine are not tool less it isn't difficult to keep a Allen Key on your key ring. Jim |
#36
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Where Jim lives, guitars have a tendency to melt (think Salvador Dali clocks); a combination of high temps and high humidity. That's why he builds with a tilt neck. Just part of what you have to do for guitars to survive at latitude 12 degrees south. He complains of the cold when he's down here in a comfortable 28C, 45% RH! |
#37
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The tendency for barrel nuts to split the wood of the tenon is admittedly a problem, but can be totally overcome by gluing in two cross- grain cleats, one on either side of the bolt hole. Better still, cleats made of 1.5mm thick aeroply. These cleats should be glued into sawn kerfs, not just stuck onto the cheeks of the tenon. |
#38
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I suspect that the same design with a round, rather than square, bar would probably work adequately and allow installation into a round hole. |
#39
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Jim, you and the other builders/luthiers in this forum must excuse me; I don't know who among you are actually luthiers (now I understand your remark about trying to pry information out of Trevor regarding his neck joint...duh). If focusing on one offends the others that's certainly not my intention. I'm a knowledgeable guitarist and guitar owner, and I assume most members of this forum are like me. That said, if any luthier/builder here would care to enlighten me regarding his/her instruments, send me a PM. I'm located nearly dead-center of the Continental US. The nearer you are to that, the better. In fact, I just set up a thread inviting ALL custom builders who utilize some form of adjustable neck angle to post their names and contact information to that thread. HERE'S THE LINK. I hope doing so is okay with the forum administration. I totally support this approach and will do whatever I can as a layman to promote it. Crocodile Dundee There's a scene in the original movie where Dundee steps in to rescue a girl who's being mugged. Afterward she says, "But weren't you afraid? He had a knife!" Dundee reaches down and retrieves something from his boot, replying, "A knife? That's not a knife. THIS is a knife..." as she stares agape at his gleaming blade, eight times the size of the mugger's puny switchblade. In light of what I've learned here in the past several days, I think we can and should apply the expression thusly: That's not a guitar. THIS is a guitar.
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You're kidding Jim about his climate, and it makes me really think about how the two of you build under such different climatic conditions. Where I live, the summers can be blistering hot and the winters deadly frigid. If I end up buying from either of you, I'll need your assurance that the tremendous temperature/humidity swings in my 'slice of the planet' won't 'jam up' these ingenious designs. I'm sure this is something you both have already taken into consideration, so you needn't respond here (unless you want to ). I just present the notion as 'Food for Thought'. Quote:
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#41
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Last edited by BothHands; 10-11-2014 at 11:24 AM. |
#42
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Be also aware of neck contour, thickness, thickness taper, fingerboard radius, nut width, nut spacing, fingerboard taper (width at 12th fret), and bridge spacing - if any of it matters, it all matters.
__________________
Go for the Tone, George |
#43
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And I agree. It ALL matters. |
#44
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Specifying the width of the fretboard at the 12th fret to be equal to the string spacing gives good results. I once owned a Collings where the fretboard width at the 16th fret was equal to the string spacing. |
#45
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As you know, we've had this discussion before. I don't do it that way. It isn't the way I was taught and I like the flexibility that I have with not doing it that way. In addition to the string spacing at the nut and the saddle, there are four dimensions that go into determining the profile of the fingerboard. These are as follows: A: the distance at the nut from the low E string to the edge of the fingerboard. B: the distance at the nut from the high E string to the edge of the fingerboard. c: the distance at the 12th fret from the low E string to the edge of the fingerboard. D: the distance at the 12th fret from the high E string to the edge of the fingerboard. These determine the profile of the fingerboard, at least for me. For the fingerpicking guitars that I make, B>A, D>A and A usually is the same as C. At what fret the saddle spacing is the same as the fingerboard width is entirely irrelevant, in the scheme I use. Certainly, using a formula, such as the width of the 12th fret is equal to the string spacing at the saddle, is often used and works, but the method I use provides - me, anyway - greater ability to tailor the characteristics of the instrument's playability to the specific needs of the player. |