The Cost of Things

[MBee]

On the helpful advice of other members, I dropped into McCabes Guitar Shop in Santa Monica while on a visit to LA from Canada. What a great spot! Extremely friendly and helpful staff, great selection of instruments, both new and used. They had no problem with me picking up any guitar and trying it out. I tried a bunch from their extensive selection of used guitiars. The two that I found most impressive were a MIJ Yamaha LL15 from the 90s and a 2004 Collings DS1 12-fret slope shoulder dread. The Yamaha was loud, resonant and rich sounding, and in immaculate condition. At $900 I though it was a steal (compared to a new LL16, for example). But I'm not really strongly oriented toward the rosewood sound.

The Collings really seduced me though: loud, responsive, straightforward, and extremely balanced. The shop guy said it was his favourite guitar in the store. I thought about it and thought about it. But at $7200 Canadian (plus customs), I would literally have had to sell two Webbers and an Avalon to afford the Collings. The Collings is certainly a great guitar, but is it qualitatively better than all of the other guitars that I own? I really don't think so. Nonetheless, it was a pleasure and a privelege to play it for a few minutes, and I'll remember that for a long time to come.

[dilver]

I think once you hit a certain price point, maybe around $3,500-5,000, guitars don’t get that much better sounding or easier to play; just different. Sure there may be more attention to detail in this or that beyond cosmetics, and different, select materials certainly come into play like BRW. But is the impact on sound and playability that significant?

Collings guitars are very expensive and very nice. But I’d have to buy used to make it affordable. Or, as you pondered, sell off a bunch of guitars for one very nice guitar.

[MBee]

Originally Posted by dilver

I think once you hit a certain price point, maybe around $3,500-5,000, guitars don’t get that much better sounding or easier to play; just different. Sure there may be more attention to detail in this or that beyond cosmetics, and different, select materials certainly come into play like BRW. But is the impact on sound and playability that significant?

Collings guitars are very expensive and very nice. But I’d have to buy used to make it affordable. Or, as you pondered, sell off a bunch of guitars for one very nice guitar.

I just picked up my Avalon. I think it is a very nice guitar. Different than the Collings, certainly, but not inferior in any way.

[Silly Moustache]

Hi MBee, I have two Collings DS1s. I'm not saying that to show off, just to share how much I admire the work of the guys in Dripping Springs in Texas!

My first Collings was bought new in 1999, and it was the rosewood DS2h. I'd realised that my style required wider fretboards, and I couldn't find a Martin 12 fret dread anywhere.

I played that DS2h hard for 21 years! (shoulda' kept it but ....)

I saw a 2008 DS1 on UK Ebay for 2010. It looked beautiful and had a darker than usual sitka top - like you sometimes see on "sinker" top woods.

I watched it and it wasn't getting any bids so I put in the starting price .... and won it! The seller was obviously disappointed, also because the price included shipping (in UK). I paid, he shipped, it arrived - in perfect "showroom" condition. I phoned him to thank him and we got talking. He'd actually lost money on it. He was fair and straight and I felt sorry for him.
I sent him a little more money to cover the shipping cost.

It became my "bluegrass" guitar and worked hard.

In 2012 another DS1, this time with an sunburst adi top, and full K&K 'lectronics.

I made some basic enquiries, but decided not to follow through.

An acquaintance and sometime writer on the AGF bought it and then asked me if I'd like to see it.

Well, he came buy and took some money from me, and so I have two. I prefer the sitka one, but the other is useful if I ever have to "plug in!"

[Aspiring]

I think it all comes down to the individual instrument and how it fits the player.

Many instruments are priced high for other reasons than tone ( builder name, exotic woods, artistic inlay work etc)

That said I'm fortunate enough to have several nicer guitars in my possession and for the most part, the most expensive ones are the ones I grab most often if I'm playing at home and that is all about how much I enjoy playing them from a combination of playability and tone.

[Skydog]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

In 2012 another DS1, this time with an sunburst adi top, and full K&K 'lectronics.

I made some basic enquiries, but decided not to follow through.

An acquaintance and sometime writer on the AGF bought it and then asked me if I'd like to see it.

Well, he came buy and took some money from me, and so I have two. I prefer the sitka one, but the other is useful if I ever have to "plug in”.

Interesting that you prefer the Sitka top. My DS1 is Sitka topped and I’ve always wondered if it would sound any better with Adi. I’m extremely happy with it as is, just one of those grass is always greener situations!

[MBee]

[QUOTE=Silly Moustache;7459866]Hi MBee, I have two Collings DS1s. I'm not saying that to show off, just to share how much I admire the work of the guys in Dripping Springs in Texas!

You're a lucky man, Silly! The one I played had an Adi top. That sunburst is sure beautiful!

[L20A]

Guitar builders have "Their Sound".
Not better than any other builder, just different.

Pick the guitar that sounds best to you regardless the name on the headstock.

[MyNameIsJeff]

I believe in two contradictory ideas-

1. Buy the guitar you love. Find the money. You’ll never regret it.
2. Buy guitars at a price point that you’re comfortable taking them out of the case and having fun with them.

I had a used/like new $3k+ Taylor that I LOVED, but the satin finish was just too soft and dinged up too easily. I sold it when I found an Alvarez with a very similar sound profile.
While not perfect, it’s been a blast playing it poolside, on my patio, and at open mics.

With that said, the Collings I’ve played was special. I just couldn’t play one live. I’d be too nervous.

[BlueBowman]

Originally Posted by L20A

Guitar builders have "Their Sound".
Not better than any other builder, just different.

Pick the guitar that sounds best to you regardless the name on the headstock.

Word.

(added characters)

[Br1ck]

Everyone has to juggle wants, means, and inclination when playing this game. I know I can find a guitar under $2k I could play forever. Heck, I have one, my 70 Guild D 35. Look for a while and you can get a D 18 for $2k. Add $500 and get rosewood if you want. My used Martin D 35 Custom fit that bill. Add money to that, sometimes a lot, and yes you can buy something better. Better is a very poor term. It is undeniable though that one day you will pick up something that enthralls you to the point of blowing up your preconceptions. You may not even to be able to explain why. The next guy might just say ho hum, not my thing.

Don't stray too far beyond your means though. Like much in life, you can exceed your happy zone. The trick is finding a guitar that pushes the limit of your zone without exceeding it. Don't buy a guitar you feel uncomfortable taking to reasonable places. You don't need a glass case guitar.

In my twisted little world, my 70 Guild D 35 is my beater. But it could be my only guitar if it had to be. I'd miss my Santa Cruz though.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsJeff

I believe in two contradictory ideas-

1. Buy the guitar you love. Find the money. You’ll never regret it.
2. Buy guitars at a price point that you’re comfortable taking them out of the case and having fun with them.

I had a used/like new $3k+ Taylor that I LOVED, but the satin finish was just too soft and dinged up too easily. I sold it when I found an Alvarez with a very similar sound profile.
While not perfect, it’s been a blast playing it poolside, on my patio, and at open mics.

With that said, the Collings I’ve played was special. I just couldn’t play one live. I’d be too nervous.

The first Collings I bought, in '99 was £2750 (new about $3500) in 1999! more than twice what I'd ever spent on a guitar. After a few weeks, I did a pub gig, and at the end of the gig, as I walked to the bar, I heard a crash and my sparkly new Collings lay on the stone floor with the headstock in bits. I did not laugh!

I got it repaired and it served me well for another 21 years, and I no longer worried about dings and dents.

Morals ?
1 your guitar should be the last item on stage (on a stand) before you start.
2. Your guitar should be the first thing to put away at the end.
3. politely decline allowing others to play your guitar unless you know and trust them well.
4. Keep your guitar in the best possible playing and cosmetic condition.
5. Learn to know how heat,cold, humidity etc., affects it (yes, they differ).
6. Play it!

[rounder]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsJeff

I believe in two contradictory ideas-

1. Buy the guitar you love. Find the money. You’ll never regret it.
2. Buy guitars at a price point that you’re comfortable taking them out of the case and having fun with them.

I had a used/like new $3k+ Taylor that I LOVED, but the satin finish was just too soft and dinged up too easily. I sold it when I found an Alvarez with a very similar sound profile.
While not perfect, it’s been a blast playing it poolside, on my patio, and at open mics.

With that said, the Collings I’ve played was special. I just couldn’t play one live. I’d be too nervous.

I agree with about pretty much everything that was said.

First good guitar I ever bought was a Martin D-28 around 1975 for $360 with the case. At the time, it was a lot of money to me. Bought an HD-28 around 1995 for about $1,700. It seemed like a lot of money. Unlike cars and other stuff (not houses), a lot of good things tend to depreciate pretty fast over time. Not saying that a good guitar will not depreciate over time, but recently good guitars tend to hold their value.

Over the years, the things that I have bought that seemed expensive at the time have been worth it. They did not all appreciate in $ value, but they were worth it to me.

[baseball]

Originally Posted by dilver

I think once you hit a certain price point, maybe around $3,500-5,000, guitars don’t get that much better sounding or easier to play; just different. Sure there may be more attention to detail in this or that beyond cosmetics, and different, select materials certainly come into play like BRW. But is the impact on sound and playability that significant?

Collings guitars are very expensive and very nice. But I’d have to buy used to make it affordable. Or, as you pondered, sell off a bunch of guitars for one very nice guitar.

I think you about nailed that. Back when I could afford up to circa 6k if necessary, I ended up buying a 'plain old' OM18 sinker that sounded and felt awesome for 4200 though I played at least 40 guitars around that price or higher...there were some Collings' I liked for about 7.5k (just outside my max at the time) but I didn't want one INSTEAD of my Martin..I thought I'd like one IN ADDITION to my Martin...and I have seen those guys in good used shape for 5k.

I have played a lot of guitars in the 7-12k range and they aren't better or worse than each other..just different vibes.

Where you go matters too. A Budget would go a lot farther here on AGF classifieds than it would in any store.

[gfirob]

For me, the redline for price is about $2,500 give or take. I think the trick of it is that each guitar, high end or low, is an individual. You can spend $15,000 for a dud, no problem. Vintage guitars no less than new guitars have spectrum of excellence and sometimes they are good and sometimes they are not and if you are in love with the idea that one make or model of guitar or one year of manufacture or whatever is going to be the guarantee that you will find your hearts desire, you will be disappointed. You have to play them and spend some time with them and compare them to others. Don’t be seduced by what “everybody knows” is the best model or make.

I have a really excellent Martin OM-42 that I bought from the factory 20 years ago, and it was selected from a field of 8 new OM-42’s by Dick Boak at Martin. It was my go-to guitar for about 20 years quite a brilliant guitar and then I found a used Gibson Roy Smeck Stage Deluxe, a limited edition run that was about 10 years old, and this individual mahogany guitar was just much superior (to my ears and mind) than the Martin which I had loved for so long. The Smeck cost $2,300. Now a Roy Smeck re-issue is hardly a world beating guitar by reputation but this particular guitar was really unusual. It was a big lesson to me.

A guitar is an individual and its strengths and weaknesses are individual. I have heard many Collings guitars that I thought were quite good, but very expensive. I have played (and owned, actually) vintage Martins that were quite good. But I never found an expensive guitar that was truly worth the money. Maybe they are .001% better than another guitar, nose to nose, but I think the myth of the holy grail guitar is a psychological construct, like the unattainable pure and beautiful woman. Women are women and guitars are guitars and all you can do is find the very best one you can and make that work for you. Women are made of flesh and blood, soul and spirit, and guitars are made of wood and metal and soul and spirit. So shop around a little…