Chinese made guitars

[jmcphail]

My bad.

Originally Posted by 1cubilindo

Nothing to apologize for. (Sorry to our Mod, not you)

Lower costs of production due to fewer costly environmental and safety regulations, basically.

Originally Posted by 1cubilindo

What does that have to do with guitars? or this?

[barrangatan]

As a person of Chinese descents who still have familial ties in China / Hong Kong, I can see both sides of the debate.

Like many have commented before, when I buy a guitar, I will buy the best guitar that I can find in my price range. And if that guitar happens to be made elsewhere in the world, then so be it. The country of origin of the guitar is somewhere between the color of the label inside and the type of dot markers used on the fingerboard in my list of priorities.

There is no doubt that guitars (and mandolins) being made in China are getting increasingly good, much more so then in any other Asian countries. And they are everywhere. But don't think of it as a zero-sum game that's wiping out the American music instrument industry: People who are considering a $3000 Martin guitar isn't thinking about buying a Blueridge as an alternative, and vice versa. Instead I see it as an expansion of the market, where more and more people can now afford a very decent instruments at a price point that was previously impossible to fathom. More guitar buyers also equal to more businesses for dealers and repairmen. And when the same market segment gets ready to upgrade, guess what they will be jonesing for? You guessed it - Collins, Bourgeousis, Martin, Gibson etc.

On the other hand, I've heard more than once from talking to other people considering guitars from China, is that they don't really know what they are getting necessarily. Specifically, many are skeptical about the wood that is being used on the guitars, and whether they are really what the company says they are. Is it really Adirondack on that Blueridge? And where did they get that Madagascar Rosewood? These are valid questions and concerns that cross our minds and unless the Chinese companies (and their U.S. importers) will need to be prepared to answer. And in time, as the industry in China matures as a whole, I am confident that they will be as transparent as any other industries in the U.S. (though I'm still worried about what goes into the hamburger patty I buy at the local supermarket).

Just my 2 cents. BTW I'm still looking for a nice used Eastman Bluegrass series if anyone has one

[dannyg1]

A centrally important issue is being overlooked in the arguments here and that is China's artificially low currency exchange rate.

The yuan has been 'locked' to the USD for decades now, guaranteeing that prices expressed in USD will be/have been artificially low, but that's supposed to be changing in the near future (With the Greek/Hungarian/Thai economic problems, not as soon as it would've been):

An interesting, short NYT article on the subject:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/08/bu...html?src=busln

[Glennwillow]

Beat me to it...

Thanks, Glenn

[1cubilindo]

Originally Posted by dannyg1

A centrally important issue is being overlooked in the arguments here and that is China's artificially low currency exchange rate.

The yuan has been 'locked' to the USD for decades now, guaranteeing that prices expressed in USD will be/have been artificially low, but that's supposed to be changing in the near future (With the Greek/Hungarian/Thai economic problems, not as soon as it would've been):

An interesting, short NYT article on the subject:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/08/bu...html?src=busln

Worthwhile read. Thanks for the link Danny.

[gitnoob]

Originally Posted by jmcphail

What I actually don't agree with and what concerns me enough to post is the idea of ( I'll paraphrase ) - "Since I haven't seen specific documentation …", or "Since I'm not qualified to understand …." That's not okay for me, personally, when I can find enough information in other areas to draw my own conclusions.

Your argument boils down to "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

So even though you can watch videos on youtube that show the conditions of several Chinese guitar factories, you'd still be concerned about possible unseen sins.

All I can say is that the same applies to the US. Even with OSHA, you can find a multitude of cockroaches here just about anywhere you'd like to shine the light.

Poor conditions are only going to be improved due to worker demand, and workers will only have leverage if their skills are needed. By buying Chinese guitars, you are helping Chinese workers. By boycotting Chinese guitars, you are harming them. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

[Huckleberry]

I'm in the UK, and have no particular allegiance to any country of origin.

I prefer the tone of high-end American guitars to most of the European voicings, so tend to buy American guitars. But, for mass-produced factory built guitars I think the best China have to offer are hard to beat. They're very good at it.

I played a Chinese classical guitar, all solid wood, that cost little more than the timers on my Sheppard, and was really rather good. In fact, it was my favourite until I started comparing it to others costing over £1,000.

Just like in other areas (hi-fis etc.) we need to compete where we can - at the high end, and in design. It's hard to make a case for paying higher labour costs for gluing together lots of pre-fab CNC cut pieces on a production line when it can be done far cheaper (and just as well, if not better) elsewhere.

There are many great, low price guitars that are designed in the UK (e.g. Faith) or US (e.g. Guild GAD) that are available to the masses because the build can be executed cheaply, and we should celebrate that.

How many of us would pay hundreds of dollars for an iPod, just because it was assembled in the US?

[blue-wily-fox]

You know.....the old saying goes...." Pickers CAN be choosers!! " So you guitar pickers, make your choices, let other's make their choices, and all is well in Munchkin Land.

[rmyAddison]

Originally Posted by gitnoob

Your argument boils down to "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

So even though you can watch videos on youtube that show the conditions of several Chinese guitar factories, you'd still be concerned about possible unseen sins.

All I can say is that the same applies to the US. Even with OSHA, you can find a multitude of cockroaches here just about anywhere you'd like to shine the light.

Poor conditions are only going to be improved due to worker demand, and workers will only have leverage if their skills are needed. By buying Chinese guitars, you are helping Chinese workers. By boycotting Chinese guitars, you are harming them. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

That is simplistic and a one sided arguement, the Chinese side. By not buying Chinese guitars you are helping the workers of whatever guitar company/country you do choose. Buying Coke is not with intent to harm Pepsi, it's simply utiliziing your right to spend your money as you see fit.

It is the Chinese government's and businesses responsibility to improve their internal workers conditions, as it is with every country.

[jmcphail]

For the record I haven't expressed any value judgements like "sins", nor have I mentioned boycotting. If someone were to read only your post they might think I have, but I haven't.

Yes, I am concerned with safety regulations, and any other regulation, standard or business practice that contributes to the cost of guitar manufacturing.

I don't know that I could recognize an unsafe guitar manufacturing operation from a video, and believe that there is a difference between clean working conditions provided by individual initiative and safe working conditions mandated and enforced by statute.

I've seen statistics and news related to other industries ( 6000+ worker deaths in China mining industries in a year, toxic pet food issue, multiple toxic toys issues ) and believe that the same regulatory environment that permits those statistics applies equally to guitar manufacturing.

Those items, along with other well-publicized issues ( Three Gorges Dam Project environmental impact ) lead me to believe that there is a less-regulated, less-enforced and less costly environment in China in which to manufacture guitars.

Originally Posted by gitnoob

Your argument boils down to "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

So even though you can watch videos on youtube that show the conditions of several Chinese guitar factories, you'd still be concerned about possible unseen sins.

All I can say is that the same applies to the US. Even with OSHA, you can find a multitude of cockroaches here just about anywhere you'd like to shine the light.

Poor conditions are only going to be improved due to worker demand, and workers will only have leverage if their skills are needed. By buying Chinese guitars, you are helping Chinese workers. By boycotting Chinese guitars, you are harming them. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

[SuperB23]

I've played a lot of acoustic guitar's built in China, including Blueridge.

The only ones I've ever thought sounded really good were some of the Epiphone Masterbilt guitars particularly a 12 Fret Dreadnought model I owned a few years back. It impressed me so much I sent a letter to Gibson/Epiphone congratulating them on being able to produce such an instrument for such a low price. What is silly is they don't build this model anymore??

[Nod]

I won't weigh in on the "Chinese guitars are just as good for much cheaper than American made guitars debate", I like my Martins and am happy with the purchase and have not played enough Chinese guitar to pass judgment but I would like to make a comment to those who think they are doing something good for the economy by buying homegrown products over cheaper imports. You are wrong, this argument is rooted in emotion not fact and by putting it into practice you are actually making a choice that is detrimental to the overall economy.

Assuming for the sake of argument that Chinese guitars are as good American made but sale for a lot less, it would be much more beneficial to the economy as a whole to purchase the inexpensive import. By buying American you are only helping those particular guitar manufacturers but when you buy the inexpensive foreign ones you would have money left over in which to spend in other segments of the economy. Most of us don't have a bottomless pit of money, we live on a budget so if we spend 3k on a guitar when we could have bought an equivalent one for 500 we have greatly reduced the amount of goods and services we could have purchased in our communities. These businesses suffer as a result. Choosing American made guitars to support the American economy is nothing more than misguided patriotism and it is actually counter productive to your ends. By doing so it only serves to make you less well off and other American manufacturers and service providers as well. This may not be welcome news if you work for an American guitar manufacturer or your livelihood is derived from having one located in your community but the economy as whole is much better off by having and opting for the low priced foreign option and as a result it creates a better standard of living or both Americans and Chinese.

[akadave]

After going through 5-6 brand new Gibson Les Pauls just to find one (57RI) that didnt have serious quality control issues AND doing direct comparison of Epiphone LPs with new American made Gibsons I came to an interesting conclusion: While the materials used by the asian company that built the Epis, the build quality was better. Looks at some of the 2005 Gibson LP Standards and you will see horendous file marks on the fretboars paralell to the frets. All done by some heavy handed idiot at the US factory. The Epis on the other hand had very well done fretboards, albeit without the binding nibs at the end of the frets, but still superior to the US guitars.

[rosewoodsteel]

Originally Posted by akadave

After going through 5-6 brand new Gibson Les Pauls just to find one (57RI) that didnt have serious quality control issues AND doing direct comparison of Epiphone LPs with new American made Gibsons I came to an interesting conclusion: While the materials used by the asian company that built the Epis, the build quality was better. Looks at some of the 2005 Gibson LP Standards and you will see horendous file marks on the fretboars paralell to the frets. All done by some heavy handed idiot at the US factory. The Epis on the other hand had very well done fretboards, albeit without the binding nibs at the end of the frets, but still superior to the US guitars.

-One of the reasons I buy PRS guitars.
They care, and it shows in their workmanship.

[airguitarro]

jmcphail,

I still do not see any examples of the guitar industry in China misbehaving itself. Your basis for disqualifying the Chinese guitar company is by judging China a Third World economy that just industrialised and opened up 30-40 years ago with the standards of a matured society and economy like the US that went through its "wild" unregulated past a hundred years ago. No developing country can pass the test you have set for China. How can it be fair to do so?

Globalisation is a reality, and slogans like "Buy American" or "Buy British" or "Buy ____" do not work IMHO and are actually self-destructive. The US economy is tied to China's in such a tight way that if you were to disengage it, it would be disastrous to both countries. And impossible historically.

This is about guitars,so I am hopefully not veering off into an economics/political discussion to much!

IMHO throughout its history, the American economy has always needed a low-wage-earning population of workers to produce cheap consumer goods. Waves of immigration provided the kind of workers who would work hard at menial and low paying jobs. When legislation required minimum wage, illegal labor and offshoring production to Mexico became almost compulsory. China is just the ultimate expression of that strategy whereby due to huge economies of scale and a very industrious work force among other factors, goods are able to be produced at unprecedentedly low costs.

When you see a factory down the street closing, it's because the economy has moved further up that wage cost spiral that another poster mentioned, and it is because aspirations of the labor base have risen accordingly and they are no longer willing to accept that sort of wages. The economy moves to a more value added basis incrementally and brand names and image and perceived quality or technological improvements are used to differentiate the goods from cheaper alternatives. One day China will be like USA, and another source of cheap labor for the world would have to be found.

To bring the discussion back to guitars and applying it to guitars, China's place as the major producer of cheap guitars will thus be taken over by another country one day, and China will have its own Taylor and Martin brands most probably. It is part of the story of change. China or Mexico or India are not taking away any American jobs and it is not harming American guitar companies because they cannot produce at tha pice point anyway. So please feel entirely at ease to buy imported guitars!

Originally Posted by jmcphail

Very good post airguitarro, thought-provoking stuff.

I think it's easy to see that the overall system of industry in China allows lower costs that are beneficial across all segments.

I said in my post comparing particular costs all business probably share - they probably take different shapes and forms. I believe differences exist.

I also mentioned that I see no reason for any particular industry to behave differently and not take advantage of every benefit available to achieve and maintain profitability, whether it's guitar manufacturing or not.

I don't need specific documentation to know what I like and don't like, to know what concerns me - I recognize those things when I see them. For example - 6,000+ worker deaths in 2004 in China mining industries. This number is astounding to me, and while I know there is OSHA in the United States, for instance, I don't know what counterpart there is in China. Given the number, which comes from Wikipedia, I have concerns about worker safety in general in China industries.

Regarding the Three Gorges project and environmental depredations in the US, you're right. The point I was making is that it is happening now, and I believe it is happening in a pervasive way across many industries. Why wouldn't it be? I'm not saying it's fair or unfair to impose different standards on developing countries, I'm saying that the cost of complying with standards is part of cost of production.

What I actually don't agree with and what concerns me enough to post is the idea of ( I'll paraphrase ) - "Since I haven't seen specific documentation …", or "Since I'm not qualified to understand …." That's not okay for me, personally, when I can find enough information in other areas to draw my own conclusions.

I have no problem with Chinese guitars or people who buy them, and I'm not using words like "condemn", "tarring", or "pointing the finger". I'm not trying to makes those kinds of points.

I'm just discussing what I think are the ways they are able to sell them so inexpensively, it's worth thinking about.

-John