Italian spruce vs sitka spruce

[bohemian]

"harvested from the region where Stradivarius chose his woods."

And you know this because?


I am a former wood broker to instrument makers..

I've heard, not all, but most.

Like opening up.. it takes a believer.

Snakewood oil.

[Bowie]

Originally Posted by bohemian

"harvested from the region where Stradivarius chose his woods."

And you know this because?


I am a former wood broker to instrument makers..

I've heard, not all, but most.

Like opening up.. it takes a believer.

Snakewood oil.

If you think Jean Larrivee is a liar, then I'd say that's more your problem than mine. If I would have been skeptical, I would not be enjoying this amazing guitar.

[The Bard Rocks]

What does all this mean? Make sure your luthier fully understands the kind of sound you want him to produce for you in the build, then take his advice.That's if all you want is tone/projection/response.

If you have decided ideas on looks or stabilty, then you can influence the build by taking these into consideration as well. Otherwise, if the rapport between you is there, heed his advice.

The difference between pieces of wood may be as great as those between builders; we can talk about these things in a general way and sometimes be right - and still be wrong on a specific piece of wood and a specific builder.

[Engelmann]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

As a builder, I'm in the 'spruce is spruce' camp, so long as you control for density. The stiffness (actually the 'Youngs' modulus', a measure of potential stiffness) along the grain of all softwoods tracks the density surprisingly closely. That means that two tops of different woods, but the same density, are very likely to have the same stiffness at a given thickness.

In general, Engelmann spruce is the least dense, followed by Euro, Sitka, and red as the most dense, but that's just a really general rule of thumb. Some of the densest and stiffest tops in my stash are Engelmann, and I've gotten Red spruce tops that were as light as any Engelmann tops, and had the stiffness to match.

In a production setting they simply make all the top the same thickness. What you'll end up with if you do it that way is a bunch of guitars that, on the average, conform to the conventional wisdom. The Engelmann topped ones will be a little thinner than they 'should' be on the average, most likely with a 'bassier' tone, and will tend to be 'responsive', but lack 'headroom'. The Red spruce ones will occupy the other end of the spectrum, for the most part. There will be a lot of overlap, of course, with some of the Red tops being lighter and more responsive, and some of the Engelmann ones having pretty good headroom. All in all there will be plenty of fodder for discussions on line, with some folks citing the usual 'truths' and others bringing up the counter examples they've seen.

Individual luthiers often take these differences in the properties into account as they work. Some of us do it explicitly, by actually measuring the density and stiffness of the wood in some objective way. Others do it by tapping and feeling, and others take care of it at the end; making things a bit on the thick side, perhaps, and sanding them down later. There are lots of discussions in the lutherie world as to what is the 'best' way, with everybody being sure that their way is the best. Any builder who is getting consistent results has a good way of doing it, whether they think they do or not.

In the end, there's nothing wrong with Romanticism, of course. If you really believe that you need a top of Transylvanian spruce, from three meters up in the trunk of a male tree that grew on the north slope in flinty soil at 300 meters above sea level, cut with an ax in the dark of the Wolf moon, floated down the river, and ponded for ten years before being re-sawn, and are willing to pay for it, what the heck.

Have you yourself built an Engelmann-topped guitar that had more headroom than one of your Adirondack-topped guitars? Here is what Mark Dalton has written on the matter over at the Huss & Dalton forum:

I have not encountered an Englemann top that had red spruce stiffness. They are very much apples and oranges. Englemann brings responsiveness to the tone and sacrifice a bit of headroom. Red spruce tends to have both the responsiveness and the headroom, thus the $750.00 up charge.

[00-28]

Red Spruce does not have the responsiveness of Engelmann. Engelmann will not have the head room of Red Spruce. My Engelmann topped D-18 will hold it's own against any Red Spruce toped dreadnaught. Red Spruce can be pushed a little further but at this point, in my opinion, your are just banging a guitar, not playing it. To say that Red Spruce has the advantage at this point is not really a bonus. .....Mike

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by Bowie

Not my experience at all. I have an Italian Spruce Larrivee and have played the same guitar with Sitka tops. The Italian is truly special. Very complex resonance with a more full-frequency sustain. Clear but smooth attack and definitely a warmth to it. The dynamic behavior is a little more like a classical than the same guitar with a Sitka top. It too forever to get it to open up though. It is 2 years old and still sounds stiff so I left a tonerite on it for 3 weeks straight and, WOW, what a change. The freq response really filled out and the volume jumped in a big way. It's now louder than my dread whereas it was previously very quiet.

I'd love to get another Italian topped guitar. Not that I have anything against Sitka, it's wonderful. But there's a complexity to the Italian that is fascinating to me.

There's a complexity to the individual Italian spruce top that happens to be on the guitar you own. But this isn't like buying a pair of top of the line running shoes, where you can confidently and accurately predict that if you buy another pair of the exact same shoes in the exact same size that they will perform exactly the same as your first pair.

Like it or not, there's going to be considerable variation from one spruce top to another, both across species and within the same species. Yes, there can be discernible tendencies, particularly when you get a chance to compare hundreds of examples of guitars built with the same combinations of tonewoods, as a large scale manufacturer like Jean Larrivée has.

But the confidence you appear to have that Italian spruce tops will always deliver the sort of performance you're enjoying in your current Larrivée guitar is misplaced. Because, sadly, spruce tops are not as predictable in their performance characteristics as running shoes can be.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Bowie]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

There's a complexity to the individual Italian spruce top that happens to be on the guitar you own. But this isn't like buying a pair of top of the line running shoes, where you can confidently and accurately predict that if you buy another pair of the exact same shoes in the exact same size that they will perform exactly the same as your first pair.

Like it or not, there's going to be considerable variation from one spruce top to another, both across species and within the same species. Yes, there can be discernible tendencies, particularly when you get a chance to compare hundreds of examples of guitars built with the same combinations of tonewoods, as a large scale manufacturer like Jean Larrivée has.

But the confidence you appear to have that Italian spruce tops will always deliver the sort of performance you're enjoying in your current Larrivée guitar is misplaced. Because, sadly, spruce tops are not as predictable in their performance characteristics as running shoes can be.


Wade Hampton Miller

While I do feel that there are many variations among even supposedly identical spruce pieces, I'm not inclined to believe what you're saying because I've found that many of the characteristics I've discovered in this guitar happen to things that others have observed about Italian Spruce. Discovering all of these opinions has been more of an "I guess I'm not alone" realization rather than happenstance or faith as others have implied. No disrespect to your opinion. To me it's akin to trying a certain type of wine and tasting that it has a strong oakiness. When you talk to many others who say the same things, it confirms your initial discovery.

[Lance Lawson]

I see a few names I haven't seen in a long time! My Italian tops were quite distinguishable from the best German I used. The Englmann re-branding to become Euro Spruce is a sticky wicket that's liable to pop up in the future too. But my Italian obviously came from very large trees and not a hint of twist. The prized true German I used was barely big enough to make a 00 sized instrument. There were knots in the outer edges of the blank such was the diminutive size.

But it delivered in spades the way coveted German Euro is claimed capable of. The question needs to be asked whether there are still trees large enough in Italy or Germany to produce tops that will make a jumbo or dreadnought with wood to spare? Was my Italian re branded Englemann? In retrospect it sure sounds like it may have been. However it was procured from a source that would have been difficult to fool.

Shown is the ancient German top used on a Parlor and my personal Italian topped dread. The German blank fit perfectly the description of the status of German Spruce from Germany.

[bohemian]

Bowie

"If you think Jean Larrivee is a liar,.."

I said no such thing.. please do not imply I said or think something I do not.

I asked a simple question.

[scottishrogue]

After reading through all the comments, I don't recall any mention of Carpathian spruce, Russian spruce or Norway Spruce. Most of the European species were transplanted from Norway to other areas of Central Europe, and back again. It's all the same stuff, colored by different environments.

Glen

[J Patrick]

Originally Posted by scottishrogue

After reading through all the comments, I don't recall any mention of Carpathian spruce, Russian spruce or Norway Spruce. Most of the European species were transplanted from Norway to other areas of Central Europe, and back again. It's all the same stuff, colored by different environments.

Glen

...and therein lies the greatest cause for differences in Spruce...wood is an organism that grows with individual characteristics based on its growing environment...not unlike a human being....even in the same forest, depending on where the tree grows in the forest there will be differences in the trees growth patterns that will affect the lumber that is produced...certain regions will have different soil and weather patterns that do account for producing trees that yield logs with certain characteristics....and within that region the trees produced will have some variation...and within each tree there will be some variation....and then someone decides to build something with the wood and the possibilities become virtually endless....thats the coolest part...