UPDATE: GC/MF Martin Special 16

[davenumber2]

Originally Posted by Driftless

I don't believe that guitar builders, including martin, have no selection process beyond grading the wood for appearance. If that were true, it would make a lot of them liars.

Martin grades their wood on cosmetics only. I’m not talking about small shop luthiers who tone tap the tops, etc.

[b1j]

Yesterday I played the Guitar Center proprietary Special 16 that Martin makes for them and Musician’s Friend. I had hoped to compare it with a Standard Reimagined Martin dread, but you know the rest of that story (none in stock). Instead, as luck would have it, there was a J-45 Standard on the wall! (That never happened when I was shopping for my J-45.)

Anyway, the J-45 was set up well, played easily, and felt familiar, as expected.

Now to the Special 16. GC had it mislabeled as a D-16E, but we were able to confirm it was actually the Special. First impressions:

- heavy, clunky even, compared with my muscle memory of a recent HD-28 trial and the actual J-45 there

- nearly dead strings

- I found that playing a challenging song like Julia was not easy, while the Gibson made it far easier.

On the other hand,

- intonation was perfect to my ears

- action was convenient up and down the neck

- easy to get into my very fussy tuning-cents construct, and stayed in tune well

- can produce silky tones on the high E and B strings. I sense this is a Martin thing. My J-45 can give me harsh or jangling sounds sometimes unless I’m vigilant.

- frets were not as high as on the J-45. This meant that my usual iron grip (!) can pull a C# note or a D note sharp on the B string. That didn’t happen with the Martin. I liked that.

- the satin neck did not get sticky

- took a capo without breaking stride

I kept waiting to hear big, boomy bass because of the scalloped bracing and the full dread shape. Didn’t happen. It’s no match for the Workhorse in that regard. Not really surprising.

I did like the percussive aura from thumping out Neil Young’s Old Man. Again, a Martin thing, I guess.

Speaking of “aura,” the (non-Aura) Matrix VT Enhance on this guitar seemed to have something wrong with it, I suspect (without evidence: it was my first experience with it). As I understand it, you’re supposed to be able to dial in the V and T with the Matrix part on the bass zone of the soundhole, and once you like that, you can then decide how much, or little, or not at all to blend in the Enhance transducer that picks up the body sounds. Trouble is, with the Enhance off there was no amplification, regardless of where I dialed the V knob up top. But — and this was confusing — with Enhance on, the V and T dials did seem to work. I didn’t gain much insight using this guitar’s Matrix VT Enhance.

That’s kind of “it.” I have to ask, why so heavy? That kept bothering me as I played it. Wood selection? And I’m sure I was also put off by the lifeless strings. The J-45 had new ones, which didn’t help.

I don’t know. After the first hour or so, I’m not intrigued. But boy, that price.

[Glennwillow]

Interesting progression for you b1j,

I think I would have had similar reactions to yours on the D16-E. I like the Martins with the onboard Aura system, but I'm not a fan of the less expensive Fishman system on these guitars.

I'm a big fan of the Martin HD-28, but yes, there is the cost...

- Glenn

[davenumber2]

Originally Posted by b1j

Yesterday I played the Guitar Center proprietary Special 16 that Martin makes for them and Musician’s Friend. I had hoped to compare it with a Standard Reimagined Martin dread, but you know the rest of that story (none in stock). Instead, as luck would have it, there was a J-45 Standard on the wall! (That never happened when I was shopping for my J-45.)



Anyway, the J-45 was set up well, played easily, and felt familiar, as expected.



Now to the Special 16. GC had it mislabeled as a D-16E, but we were able to confirm it was actually the Special. First impressions:



- heavy, clunky even, compared with my muscle memory of a recent HD-28 trial and the actual J-45 there



- nearly dead strings



- I found that playing a challenging song like Julia was not easy, while the Gibson made it far easier.



On the other hand,



- intonation was perfect to my ears



- action was convenient up and down the neck



- easy to get into my very fussy tuning-cents construct, and stayed in tune well



- can produce silky tones on the high E and B strings. I sense this is a Martin thing. My J-45 can give me harsh or jangling sounds sometimes unless I’m vigilant.



- frets were not as high as on the J-45. This meant that my usual iron grip (!) can pull a C# note or a D note sharp on the B string. That didn’t happen with the Martin. I liked that.



- the satin neck did not get sticky



- took a capo without breaking stride



I kept waiting to hear big, boomy bass because of the scalloped bracing and the full dread shape. Didn’t happen. It’s no match for the Workhorse in that regard. Not really surprising.



I did like the percussive aura from thumping out Neil Young’s Old Man. Again, a Martin thing, I guess.



Speaking of “aura,” the (non-Aura) Matrix VT Enhance on this guitar seemed to have something wrong with it, I suspect (without evidence: it was my first experience with it). As I understand it, you’re supposed to be able to dial in the V and T with the Matrix part on the bass zone of the soundhole, and once you like that, you can then decide how much, or little, or not at all to blend in the Enhance transducer that picks up the body sounds. Trouble is, with the Enhance off there was no amplification, regardless of where I dialed the V knob up top. But — and this was confusing — with Enhance on, the V and T dials did seem to work. I didn’t gain much insight using this guitar’s Matrix VT Enhance.



That’s kind of “it.” I have to ask, why so heavy? That kept bothering me as I played it. Wood selection? And I’m sure I was also put off by the lifeless strings. The J-45 had new ones, which didn’t help.



I don’t know. After the first hour or so, I’m not intrigued. But boy, that price.

Why not buy a $5 pack of strings and have them put them on real quick? If you tell them you’re really interested in buying they would probably do it (even though it’s GC).

[b1j]

Originally Posted by davenumber2

Why not buy a $5 pack of strings and have them put them on real quick? If you tell them you’re really interested in buying they would probably do it (even though it’s GC).

Right. Good idea. The guy said he’s do it for me, but as it was my first trial, I decided to go light on the experience.

[lowrider]

Too bad you ran into a guitar that's not in it's best shape. Did you ask about the PU not working properly?

Yes, you could have asked for new strings but at GC who knows how long it will take. One time the guy at GC said ''Let me put new strings on that guitar for you''. I gave up waiting and left.

And it's my experience that rosewood is heavier than mahogany. My Indian rosewood J-40 is noticabley heavier than my genuine mahogany J-17, even though they are very similar.

Maybe, if you're really interested, you could order a 16 Special into a nearby store, so you not playing one that's been knocked around the store fro a while.

[b1j]

Yes, I’ve thought of the density differences. My Gurian has always seemed a bit weightier than some other guitars, even my J-45, but to be honest I chalked that up to maybe Michael Gurian’s 1970s wood selection (without evidence).

Two sources said this today about densities, in g/cm^3:
Mahogany 0.50 — 0.80
Rosewood 0.80 — 0.88
I suppose with a guitar small differences in thickness could swing the weight one way or the other.

What would help me answer this? The Special 16 comes in either mahogany or rosewood, so in my dream world I could play both side by side. Nah. Won’t happen.

More to the point, if I could play Special 16 and an HD-28E together, that would be informative. But GC wouldn’t let me take their 16 out to my local independent store that does have an HD-28E, unless I bought it. That seems unethical. What I can do is go back to the independent shop and just try to remember the heft of the Special 16 as I play the HD-28E. Or ask GC to get an HD-28E?

I did not ask the GC acoustic guy for help with the pickup. While I was in the store I saw him sell maybe fifteen guitars and an untold number of little accessories. He sold five while I waited in line to talk to him the first time. And who knows how many he sold while I was in the guitar room.

Clever idea to order one into my local GC so it’s new. But I wonder if they’d just truck one over from the wall of another store. If so, then the last resort is a string change.

[lowrider]

The 16 Special does not come in mahogany. Only the D-16e, 000 depth, comes in both.

If the 16 Special had a mahogany version, I'd have one already.

If you want to order a new one into the stoor, you have to specify that.

[tsmith28]

Originally Posted by b1j

I kept waiting to hear big, boomy bass because of the scalloped bracing and the full dread shape. Didn’t happen. It’s no match for the Workhorse in that regard. Not really surprising.

Hmm, odd...maybe it was due to the dead strings of the floor model you played. My Special 16 Style, which I bought new, has plenty of deep thumping bass. In fact it's my favorite aspect of its tone. Anyway, to each his own, but I love the Special 16 Style so much that my GAS for a standard series dread is extinguished.

[Tytlynz]

Originally Posted by tsmith28

Hmm, odd...maybe it was due to the dead strings of the floor model you played. My Special 16 Style, which I bought new, has plenty of deep thumping bass. In fact it's my favorite aspect of its tone. Anyway, to each his own, but I love the Special 16 Style so much that my GAS for a standard series dread is extinguished.

I heard the boomy Martin bass both times I played the special 16. And compared to the D28 I A/Bed it against, the 16 was deeper. Maybe it was the strings.

[b1j]

Originally Posted by lowrider

The 16 Special does not come in mahogany. Only the D-16e, 000 depth, comes in both.

If the 16 Special had a mahogany version, I'd have one already.

Always learning. Thanks for helping me keep it straight.

[b1j]

Originally Posted by tsmith28

Hmm, odd...maybe it was due to the dead strings of the floor model you played. My Special 16 Style, which I bought new, has plenty of deep thumping bass. In fact it's my favorite aspect of its tone. Anyway, to each his own, but I love the Special 16 Style so much that my GAS for a standard series dread is extinguished.

Very interesting. New strings next time.

While I have you, does your Special 16 feel heavy to you?

[b1j]

Originally Posted by Tytlynz

I heard the boomy Martin bass both times I played the special 16. And compared to the D28 I A/Bed it against, the 16 was deeper. Maybe it was the strings.

Exactly the question I was trying to answer. Gotta try it with new lights. Thanks.

[tsmith28]

Originally Posted by b1j

While I have you, does your Special 16 feel heavy to you?

No, it doesn't...although I must admit that (1) I remove the battery from my acoustic-electrics as I have no need for amplification and (2) I can't imagine any acoustic guitar feeling too heavy for me. Objectively, its weight is somewhere between my very light Eastman E1D and my heavier Martin Special D Ovangkol.

[cc132]

Originally Posted by b1j

But GC wouldn’t let me take their 16 out to my local independent store that does have an HD-28E, unless I bought it. That seems unethical.

I'm sorry, but I must be missing something here. Are you saying it's unethical that they won't let you leave with unpaid for, high-dollar merchandise so that you can go test it in other stores?

I have never heard of anyone doing this before, ever. Is this a common thing that stores allow?