Sapele vs African Mahogany

[Jim]

Originally Posted by guitar george

What is "tropical mahogany"? Where is it from?

There is no such wood as "tropical mahogany" - that is only a made up term used to market wood and things made out of wood to get the highest price since most everyone has heard of the wood "mahogany" and equates it with traditional quality while very few people have heard of Khaya or Sipo or Sapele or other brown colored hardwoods that come from trees grown in the tropics.

I could decide to make and advertise high end acoustic guitars made with genuine "Massachusetts Mahogany" that was cut by the light of a full moon on midsummer's eve and no one could stop me. What I would be actually using is Prunus serotine and if anyone asked I would have to tell them that was the scientific name of the rare Massachusetts Mahogany I was selling them. What I would be hiding from them by not being open about what exactly the made up marketing name "Massachusetts Mahogany" actually was is that most people in the US call this wood by its common name, cherry. Cherry wood or Prunus serotine is a nice medium reddish-brown hardwood with a fine grain that sounds pretty good in guitars and looks somewhat like real mahogany - but it just isn't really any kind of mahogany.

If the actual kind of wood that your guitar is made from matters to you, and if you are going to pay a premium for certain kinds of woods, you really have to learn and use the scientific or botanical names of woods to have any idea what is being used on your guitar. Otherwise there is no protection for you when you buy a guitar that is not really made from the kind of wood you were thinking you were buying when you relied on a marketing term or common name of the wood.

[AZLiberty]

Originally Posted by Ed-in-Ohio

So, we know it is not one of the African "mahoganies" (Utile, Sipo, Khaya, or Sapele), and we know it comes from tropical Central or South America. This is WAY more than we know when it comes to Martin's "Mahogany".

Taylor's level of disclosure is good enough for me. Of course, your mileage may vary.

Martin's Mahogany is Sipo.
Martin's "Genuine Mahogany" is South American Mahogany.

Martin's "Select Hardwood" could be a number of things but is usually Spanish Cedar

(I think Sipo and Utile are different names for the same wood - Entandrophragma utile)

I wish both manufacturers would list the actual botanical names though.

[Ed-in-Ohio]

Originally Posted by AZLiberty

...snip...
I wish both manufacturers would list the actual botanical names though.

Totally agree! I'd like actual botanical name and appellation as specific as possible.

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by AZLiberty

Martin's Mahogany is Sipo.
Martin's "Genuine Mahogany" is South American Mahogany.

Martin's "Select Hardwood" could be a number of things but is usually Spanish Cedar

(I think Sipo and Utile are different names for the same wood - Entandrophragma utile)

I wish both manufacturers would list the actual botanical names though.

Interesting idea, but I wonder if the perception that one timber is inherently 'better' than another, might inhibit sales of guitars using the latter-assuming, of course, that one inhabits places where stuff like that is discussed, ad infinitum!

. For example it has been suggested that sapele is an inferior tone wood to, for example, 'Genuine Mahogany'.

[guitar george]

Originally Posted by Jim

I could decide to make and advertise high end acoustic guitars made with genuine "Massachusetts Mahogany" that was cut by the light of a full moon on midsummer's eve and no one could stop me. What I would be actually using is Prunus serotine and if anyone asked I would have to tell them that was the scientific name of the rare Massachusetts Mahogany I was selling them. What I would be hiding from them by not being open about what exactly the made up marketing name "Massachusetts Mahogany" actually was is that most people in the US call this wood by its common name, cherry. Cherry wood or Prunus serotine is a nice medium reddish-brown hardwood with a fine grain that sounds pretty good in guitars and looks somewhat like real mahogany - but it just isn't really any kind of mahogany.

La Patrie Etude made of "Genuine Massachusetts Mahogany"

La Patrie (28).jpg

[AZLiberty]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

. For example it has been suggested that sapele is an inferior tone wood to, for example, 'Genuine Mahogany'.

Inferior? Superior? The one thing we can say for certain is that on the current market Sapele is less expensive than "genuine SA Mahogany"

When I have played SA Hog guitars side by side with equivalent Sapele ones I have found the Sapele ones to be (subtly) brighter sounding.

I know Matt Larrivee has told us repeatedly that the Sapele and Khaya available on the market right now is considerably superior in quality to the mahogany available. They also stopped using Sapele due to the health effects on their employees though.

[email4eric]

Originally Posted by AZLiberty

Inferior? Superior? The one thing we can say for certain is that on the current market Sapele is less expensive than "genuine SA Mahogany"

When I have played SA Hog guitars side by side with equivalent Sapele ones I have found the Sapele ones to be (subtly) brighter sounding.

I know Matt Larrivee has told us repeatedly that the Sapele and Khaya available on the market right now is considerably superior in quality to the mahogany available. They also stopped using Sapele due to the health effects on their employees though.

I think this is spot on. Sapele, Khya, and Sipo are by no means inferior woods. Relatively new to the guitar market perhaps and quality stock much more available. These two factors (new and unknown) lead folks to think that they're inferior or that customers are being short-changed -- not getting the genuine thing. I think calling all of these woods "mahogany" fosters this perception. These new and alternative woods may very well be found to be more desirable.

Could there be a correlation between the expansion of tone woods used and the establishment of what many consider to be a contemporary golden age of guitar building?

[AZLiberty]

Originally Posted by email4eric

Could there be a correlation between the expansion of tone woods used and the establishment of what many consider to be a contemporary golden age of guitar building?

I believe that has far more to do with the widespread use of CNC machining. CAD design, and the use of UV cured polymer finishes. All of which significantly reduces labor cost and increases consistency and quality.

[rwmct]

I don't have a problem with any of these tonewoods, but I do have a problem with manufacturers trying to finesse which ones they are using by giving them bogus names. The "Massachusetts Mahogany" comment is dead on. "Massachusetts Mahogany" is no more ridiculous than "African Mahogany" but we are getting used to the latter.

[mrjop1975]

A while ago, when there was a dealer sale going on with Martin and some of there instruments, I had gotten the acoustic/electric all sapale wood dreadnought junior. I tried both the spruce top version and the all sapale version, and to my ears, the all sapale version spoke to me more then the spruce top version. It seemed a more even tone then it's spruce top brother did. It ate up what I did with it more so then the other.

I also wound up during the same sale ordering online from Guitar Center one of there custom LX series Little Martins, with the mahogany hpl sides and back with a solid sapale top. Great sound to it as well.

I guess what I am getting at in this sapale verses mahogany is that you can not judge a book by it's cover or name and to give it an honest try out before you decide it is not for you.

I am attaching pictures of both guitars mentioned so you can see them btw.

[ManyMartinMan]

It seems that if people would spent half the time they take complaining about things and actually play their guitars they would be much happier. I say forget the specs and grab a guitar that makes you want to play at and play it. If you are more concerned about what wood your guitar is made of than how it sounds and plays, I think priorities need to be reviewed.

[rwmct]

Originally Posted by ManyMartinMan

It seems that if people would spent half the time they take complaining about things and actually play their guitars they would be much happier. I say forget the specs and grab a guitar that makes you want to play at and play it. If you are more concerned about what wood your guitar is made of than how it sounds and plays, I think priorities need to be reviewed.

What people are complaining about is the marketing that tries to finesse what woods are actually being used. That has nothing to do with the sound of the guitar, good or bad. A guitar made of something else besides Mahogany is not a Mahogany guitar.

[bjewell]

Well they are cutting down the old growth as fast as they can destroying the rain forest canopy in the process so it won't be long before it will join the other CITES victims...

[Authentic]

Originally Posted by AZLiberty

Martin's Mahogany is Sipo.
Martin's "Genuine Mahogany" is South American Mahogany.

Martin's "Select Hardwood" could be a number of things but is usually Spanish Cedar

Not correct. Martin's "Genuine Mahogany" is African Mahogany, not South American.

[TokyoNeko]

Originally Posted by Authentic

Not correct. Martin's "Genuine Mahogany" is African Mahogany, not South American.

What is your definition of "African Mahogany?" Khaya? Swietenia Macrophylla in an African plantation? (I don't know of a Swietenia plantation in Africa, by the way.)