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  #91  
Old 07-23-2010, 01:55 PM
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Larry Pattis Larry Pattis is offline
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Originally Posted by Tarpman View Post
Larry, I certainly understand your frustration with the Cargo. Here is an amazing travel guitar that is considered a "must have" by most of us and you can't make it work for you. I'm afraid those looking for a carbon travel guitar with perfect intonation and adjustable truss rod will need to look elsewhere but for the rest of us playing cowboy chords around the campfire the Cargo will do just fine.

BTW, I know very little of guitar construction but I do know how to sell them. From April of 2009 to December of 2009 I sold about 200 CA's (that's about five times what other dealers were able to sell) and I can only recall one or two complaints. Had I bought CA, and I did think about it, I would have made no changes to the design especially the Cargo. Will Peavey think about making some improvements? I'm sure they will. Are any needed to sell guitars now? Absolutely not.

I sit here at my desk and look around me.

I see products with all sorts of functions which I use in my daily life.

Most (if not all) of these products have been changed and/or improved over time, from their original form at inception. I'm not talking about market-speak "new and improved," I'm talking about innovations and or common-sense changes that impacted these products for the better.

I have "championed" some innovative products over the years in the guitar community, sometimes observing great resistance.

One example would be Elixir strings. Elixir strings were denigrated by a very vocal majority when they hit the market. It was a change over what people were used to. People hated them. People vilified anyone that supported the product. It was unusable as a guitar string. I have heard it all, over the years.

Now Elixirs are considered a popular choice by many, and coated strings are made by a number of manufacturers...

...but our little corner of the world *is* rather resistant to change. Just think what the "traditionalists" would have done on-line if Martin's change-over to adjustable truss-rods would have occurred during our current "internet-forum-era"? Talk about the flame-war to end all flame wars!

Now, CA is an interesting case. It *is* an innovative product, by it's very nature. It has been accepted by a certain segment of the guitar-playing community, and rejected by others.

I believe that carbon fiber guitars are no better or worse than wood guitars....they simply differ in their tone and construction. There can be benefits and drawbacks to both kinds of guitars.

...but like all these products I see around me, these guitars (CA and others) are simply products. Products that can stand some scrutinizing, and products that may be able to be improved with some change.

I refuse to put my head in the sand and agree that there is *no* need to improve the CA product, simply because some are satisfied in its use with its current form.

Let me repeat that:

I refuse to put my head in the sand and agree that there is *no* need to improve the CA product, simply because some are satisfied in its use with its current form.

I will continue to look for and appreciate appropriate and useful innovation within our industry, wherever I can find it.

Nothing in life is perfect.
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Last edited by Larry Pattis; 07-23-2010 at 05:31 PM.
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  #92  
Old 07-23-2010, 03:22 PM
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Improvements, how about a fold down carbon fiber model like the Brunner or Voyage -air
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  #93  
Old 07-23-2010, 03:33 PM
Tone Gopher Tone Gopher is offline
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Originally Posted by Larry Pattis View Post
Nothing in life is perfect.
Oh, I don't know - seeing you on our last visit and having a good beer while listening to you play was pretty close to it. Then there was waking up and watching the deer outside the window and smellin' the coffee.

I take you to task, Larry. Some things in life are perfect - they just don't last long enough.
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  #94  
Old 07-23-2010, 03:52 PM
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Perfectly said TG.... guess that makes another one.
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  #95  
Old 07-23-2010, 04:19 PM
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I agree with Larry on the improvements to the current design. I have read a few comments about how being the current design of the CA guitar brings no thinking or worring about it going out of wack so no need to worry about adjustments. Here is what puzzles me-- HOW and I repeat HOW will installing a truss rod in a CARBON FIBER guitar make it any less reliable????? Basically adjust to YOUR preference and LEAVE IT ALONE FOR LIFE!!!!!! is that NOT what a carbon fiber guitar has for a major advantage. The truss rod will not make the guitar move around or unstable !!!! it WILL however make it so it can be adjusted to preference of the player. The way I see it it would be a WIN WIN situation.

maybe I am missing something here!

OH and BTW a truss rod would allow for string type or gauge change and even alternate tuning change. The current design when going from light to medium would ADD relief when that is NOT necessary!!!!! My current 816CE has the lowest action of any Taylor I have owned with 13s and if I had 12s or lighter on it I woulds have to raise the action or add releief to keep the string from buzzing. the larger gauge is stiffer it will not vibrate as much to get same tone.
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  #96  
Old 07-23-2010, 04:23 PM
Tone Gopher Tone Gopher is offline
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Originally Posted by leeasam View Post
The truss rod will not make the guitar move around or unstable !!!! it WILL however make it so it can be adjusted to preference of the player. The way I see it it would be a WIN WIN situation.

maybe I am missing something here!
Given that the necks are currently engineered to maintain geometry without a truss rod, adding a truss rod would require that they make the neck less stiff so the truss rod could have an effect without excessive force. The good news is that such a modification is easily accomplished if one understands how to critically tune a composite layup. The resultant product should still be just as stable as one could hope for.
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  #97  
Old 07-23-2010, 04:28 PM
leeasam leeasam is offline
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Originally Posted by Tone Gopher View Post
Given that the necks are currently engineered to maintain geometry without a truss rod, adding a truss rod would require that they make the neck less stiff so the truss rod could have an effect without excessive force. The good news is that such a modification is easily accomplished if one understands how to critically tune a composite layup. The resultant product should still be just as stable as one could hope for.
you have a point to an extent except when you went from lights to mediums the neck ended up with MORE relief so that tells me that it was NOT as stable or unmovable as one would think. If string gauge can change the relief then a truss rod could easily too WITHOUT the need to re- engineer!
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  #98  
Old 07-23-2010, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeasam View Post
The current design when going from light to medium would ADD relief when that is NOT necessary!!!!!
I currently have mediums on my Cargo, and I have feeler gauges. I could measure the relief if you'd like....
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  #99  
Old 07-23-2010, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by gitnoob View Post
I currently have mediums on my Cargo, and I have feeler gauges. I could measure the relief if you'd like....
I tried going from lights to mediums on my GX and it DID add a tad of relief and CA even admitted to that happening but claimed that the added relief is needed for larger gauge strings. not so.
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  #100  
Old 07-23-2010, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by leeasam View Post
I tried going from lights to mediums on my GX and it DID add a tad of relief and CA even admitted to that happening but claimed that the added relief is needed for larger gauge strings. not so.
I just measured mine for fun. Looks like between 0.003 and 0.004" at the 7th fret bass-E with mediums.

Would this adversely affect playability in your opinion? It seems fine to me.
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  #101  
Old 07-23-2010, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by gitnoob View Post
I just measured mine for fun. Looks like between 0.003 and 0.004" at the 7th fret bass-E with mediums.

Would this adversely affect playability in your opinion? It seems fine to me.
no this does not have an adverse effect on playing. Actually might be able to have lower action at the saddle with mediums as it gave the neck a tad more relief.

My problem with the GX I had was the neck was so straight that I could NOT get the action any lower with out buzzing the crap out of the strings. I was also NOT willing to go to mediums as it played stiff enough the way it was. My 816CE has WAY lower action with NO buzzing that could NOT be achieved with the GX with out more adjustability of some sort-- ie truss rod!

I am a bit more agressive than some and many times will add a tinch of relief over the factory setting to keep from buzzing the strings on the lower fretts.

I was having some major hand and finger pain with my GX after playing 45 minutes plus straight in church and now with my Taylor I have NO issues and am even playing with a heavier gauge. the GX could NOT be adjusted to play like my Taylor. That is what I and I believe Larry and others are getting at. Is it close enough or good enough for many-- yes!! is it good enough for all NOPE!!
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  #102  
Old 07-23-2010, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by gitnoob View Post
I just measured mine for fun. Looks like between 0.003 and 0.004" at the 7th fret bass-E with mediums.

Would this adversely affect playability in your opinion? It seems fine to me.
That isn't very much relief, but if it works for you......
Again, from Frets.com;

"Here's how I do it. I simply mash the G string down at the first fret and at the body, usually the fourteenth fret.....Then, all I have to do is look at the space between the bottom of that string and the top of the sixth fret."
"A medium gauge first string is 0.013 inches which is just about the right amount of relief for a "regular" player. A hard driving bluegrasser is likely to need more relief, maybe as much as the third string itself, or about 0.026 inches.


"The point is to determine the right amount of relief by experimentation. That is, play the guitar and adjust the relief until strings have about the same tendency to buzz when fretted at the low positions and high positions. A guitar that buzzes in low positions only may be in need of a neck adjustment for more relief. If it buzzes in high positions, a truss rod adjustment won't help - the action will need to go up at the bridge."

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musi...Adj/tradj.html
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  #103  
Old 07-23-2010, 05:40 PM
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Larry Pattis Larry Pattis is offline
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Originally Posted by Tone Gopher View Post
Oh, I don't know - seeing you on our last visit and having a good beer while listening to you play was pretty close to it. Then there was waking up and watching the deer outside the window and smellin' the coffee.

I take you to task, Larry. Some things in life are perfect - they just don't last long enough.

It's so important to have friends, yes?

I can take no credit for the deer or beer, but I *am* responsible for bean-roasting, grinding and brewing...and music, from time to time.


For all the Cargo lovers out there...keep lovin' 'em. Maybe they'll be "new and improved" in a while!

Here's my non-flaw "desire" (personal preference) for Peavey on this front; make the gol-darned necks thicker!




P.S. CA has admitted (posted elsewhere in this thread) that the relief changes with different gauge strings. We all should know exactly what this means. Things will shift and/or flex. We currently have no control over this....but maybe this, and neck-angle issues will be corrected with new and more guitar-knowledgeable owners...oh, be still my beating heart...

P.S.S. If anyone from Peavey is reading this, I'm available as an industry-consultant on this whole issue...and more. I have experience, credentials and references.
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  #104  
Old 07-23-2010, 05:43 PM
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That isn't very much relief, but if it works for you......
Understood, but yes, it works for me. I can't induce buzzing unless I pluck vertically with some force. Rules of thumb are fine, but ultimately it's playability and tone that matter.

I understand wanting adjustability, but to characterize the fixed geometry as "flawed" is akin to saying every pre-1985 Martin is flawed. If it doesn't work for you, move on. There are lots of guitars out there, and carbon fiber may not have the kind of adjustability some people want.

But who knows, maybe the guys at Peavey have something up their sleeve that will appease everybody.
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  #105  
Old 07-23-2010, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by gitnoob View Post
I understand wanting adjustability, but to characterize the fixed geometry as "flawed" is akin to saying every pre-1985 Martin is flawed.

Huh?

What?

Martins of that era (as new) likely had much better quality-control when it came to neck angle (fixed geometry), which was fitted by hand with the dovetail joint in much lower quantities than today's production numbers.

The neck-angle of a guitar is a completely different issue from the adjustable/non-adjustable truss rod thing. A neck angle can be perfect, and the relief of a neck can be quite bad. Martin "gave in" on the truss-rod issue. They changed their minds about their building practices. You can only imagine what the pressures were, with every other guitar builder having adjustable truss-rods, and Martin, the Cadillac of guitar builders (at the time) did indeed have warranty-repair issues with their fixed system in regards to relief adjustment. Why do you think they changed?


Quote:
Originally Posted by gitnoob View Post
If it doesn't work for you, move on. There are lots of guitars out there, and carbon fiber may not have the kind of adjustability some people want.
I'm sorry, but I thought that in our society consumers can have a hand in shaping the products that they use.

You post is akin to saying "shut up and be happy with something else."

I don't buy into this.

At all.

Not for one second...

...especially if it's something I am knowledgeable about.

You might be surprised to know what companies look in on the forums from time to time, especially when their products are being mentioned.

The old CA product doesn't have the adjustability (and neck geometry) that some people want because the company decided to do things a certain way. Products change, thinking can change, companies can (and do) change.

There are millions of examples of product-improvement that could be cited.

Some people didn't want or like color tv when it first became available.

Want more?



Okay, back on-topic:

P.S. The "corrections" for a pre-adjustable truss rod Martin that had too much relief included re-fretting with frets that a wider tang, in an attempt to have the fret-tangs force the neck relief back into a more playable position.

Slightly more difficult and expensive than a truss-rod adjustment.

Another "fix" would be to remove all the frets and re-plane the neck...and then re-fret.

Also slightly more difficult and expensive than a truss-rod adjustment.

Living with or avoiding a problem (by buying a different guitar) isn't the solution to the neck-angle nor the no-adjustable truss rod flaws.
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Last edited by Larry Pattis; 07-23-2010 at 06:13 PM.
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