Factory made guitars VS High-end Luthier made guitars !!!!!

[blindboyjimi]

Originally Posted by tadol

I think, that to reasonably evaluate and consider any of the opinions presented, the comments need to be preceded with the experience one has with high end, luthier built instruments. To say, “I played a (XXX) guitar once ( at a show, in a crowded room, for 3 to 4 minutes ) and it was no better than my ( laminate import deal-of-the-day ) “ doesn’t really provide any value to the discussion. Its like someone saying they wouldn’t eat at Chez Panisse, because McDonalds tastes great to them - even though they’ve never eaten at Chez Panisse -

Handmade, solo luthier guitars can be amazing things - in some ways, a fair bit better than the best high-end small shop instruments. And those can be better than the best factory shop instruments. And so on, and so on. But if you can’t hear, or feel, or appreciate the differences - then they don’t exist. But ONLY for you - because others, can and do know the differences - and they prove that by buying those instruments. There are no absolutes - I’ve played some high-end solo luthier very pricey instruments that actually sounded bad - so price, and name, and woods, and construction details, don’t guarantee anything. And I’ve heard a couple factory guitars that were amazing - but it was THAT guitar, not the model, and not the name. And I’ve tried a LOT of factory guitars that just left me feeling “meh” -

I’m extremely happy to have a few guitars made by Bruce Sexauer - and they are some truly amazing instruments. I cannot imagine, at this point, not having at least one of his guitars within arms reach for the rest of my days. But I also have a number of great Santa Cruz guitars, and if I only had one or two of those to keep with me, I’d be very hard pressed to be unhappy. And if everything went bad, and all I had left to me was my Larrivee, I would miss the others, but I’d still have a great guitar to play.

But - if I had to choose between ANY random Sexauer, or ANY random factory guitar, I know beyond any doubt, I would have an amazing guitar with any Sexauer put in my hands - and I couldn’t say the same with the other option -

Having read the entire thread, this post seems the most accurate to my way of thinking. Only a few of us have vast experience and those that have the experience you may not agree with. After all, everyone’s perfect guitar is quite different. People that plug-in are mainly listening to their pick up and amplification system. People that play fingerstyle home concerts may want to hear one thing while people that are strumming rhythm in a bluegrass band might desire something completely different.

What a lot of people don’t understand is that big companies like Martin, build to a recipe. They do not tap tone or alter their design even in their custom shop. The tops are all the same thickness, the braces are the same size and the carvings of the braces specified by the model with either regular braced, GE braced or authentic braced. Martin, tries to buy the best wood they can in huge supply and therefore their recipe as to where the braces go and how to construct a guitar will lead to an average of a very good guitar. It will be on a bell curve where some will be less than very good and some will be quite good. So each individual guitar will be within a range which is mainly specified by luck.

The small shops have a separate person buying the wood. A separate person carving the necks and a separate person voices the top or something similar to that. The person voicing the top, tap tones and carves each brace specific to that tap tone. This type of building gives us much more attention to the quality of wood purchased and the final outcome of the guitar. One would still expect a bell curve but most of the guitars let out of the shop should be to a very high standard. This is how I view companies like Santa Cruz or builders that are making less than 1000 instruments a year. And the better ones churning out maybe only 100 per year such as Froggy Bottom or Goodall.

The single luthiers control absolutely everything from the wood purchased, positioning and shape of the braces to the carve for the neck and the voicing of the top and give much more attention to each guitar thereby only letting the ones out of the shop but they are fully pleased with. That still depends on one’s experience in selecting wood and carving the braces as well as overall fit and finish. Just like any other profession whether it’s doctors or plumbers, there is a bell curve of mediocre to outstanding. The final rationale is the supply to demand ratio which sets the price and the waitlist. Those that normally have the longest waitlist and the highest base price would be expected to turn out the most consistent and highest end guitar.

You still may not like that guitar for your own needs, especially if you’re strumming cowboy chords on the back porch or playing in noisy bars. I’ve had at least 50 guitars. Some guitars from the best builders in the business and some Martin’s and Gibsons. In the last 10 years I’ve bought several 5 figure guitars and and one as inexpensive as $275. I currently own vintage Martins, high end luthier guitars, but I also own a 2007 Martin, a 2018 Waterloo, as well as a 2017 inexpensive (to me) crossover nylon guitar. Each has a purpose and I wouldn’t own the guitar if it didn’t bring me joy playing it.

[wisedennis]

Originally Posted by SuperB23

A lot of the Martin and Gibson acoustics built in the 1930s and 40s do. Some of the Martins in the early to mid 50s also. For newer stuff some of the hand built instruments by the Martin Custom Shop, Huss and Dalton, and Santa Cruz Guitar Company get it right too. There are other brands like Froggy Bottom, McPherson, Goodall, Ryan that border on solo luthier vs small factory which are also all incredible instruments.

How about Martin “Authentic 19xx” or “golden era” series ? Are they as good as the REAL Vintages?

Dennis

[Kitkatjoe]

Martin has over 400 luthiers building guitars. Taylor has many luthiers also. The one or three person shop has qualified luthiers building guitars also. I wish them all success. Every luthier on the earth who is building quality guitars may they have success.

[Pickcity]

This is an interesting thread. Everyone is different and will have their own approach, according to what it is they are trying to accomplish with an instrument. For me it is writing songs (with lyrics and vocals), performing those songs, recording those songs, and having fun wherever I play. I can accomplish these things with pretty much any decent guitar. The next guy may be strictly a composer of guitar tunes, or a professional classical guitarist. This means that all of us have very different needs. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to factory vs boutique luthiers. Only individual answers according to our own personal needs.

I still stick by my previous response that the higher the price goes, the greater the diminishing return. For example, most would expect a $5,000 instrument to be a really great performer, so we would expect a $10,000 instrument to be exceptional...Definitely better than the great $5,000 guitar, but is it really double the price better? Again, JMO, and it is completely subjective....I can appreciate the guys who have such fine tastes. I'm not one of them, but I can appreciate them.

[wisedennis]

I guitar Taylor/Martin might be “factory” guitar instead of “luthier-made”..?

The line is relatively blur though..

Originally Posted by Kitkatjoe

Martin has over 400 luthiers building guitars. Taylor has many luthiers also. The one or three person shop has qualified luthiers building guitars also. I wish them all success. Every luthier on the earth who is building quality guitars may they have success.

[Dbone]

Originally Posted by Kitkatjoe

Martin has over 400 luthiers building guitars. Taylor has many luthiers also. The one or three person shop has qualified luthiers building guitars also. I wish them all success. Every luthier on the earth who is building quality guitars may they have success.

There is nothing wrong with what you said. People like you help keep threads like this measured and civil. Balances things out. It helps keep the attitudes displayed immediately above at bay and averaged out.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Dbone

There is nothing wrong with what you said.

I think the exception taken had to do with how one defines the term "luthier". It is an interesting question: is someone who, for example, programs and operates CNC machinery that makes guitar parts a "luthier"? Perhaps one is, given modern manufacturing methods. It is certainly open to interpretation.

Otherwise, it is a very nice sentiment to wish all well, particularly in these times.

[Dbone]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

I think the exception taken had to do with how one defines the term "luthier". It is an interesting question: is someone who, for example, programs and operates CNC machinery that makes guitar parts a "luthier"? Perhaps one is, given modern manufacturing methods. It is certainly open to interpretation.

Otherwise, it is a very nice sentiment to wish all well, particularly in these times.

I suspect there are still a few highly skilled luthiers around in any of these companies despite improved business processes. With this said, I didn’t make the link you made.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Dbone

I suspect there are still a few highly skilled luthiers around in any of these companies despite improved business processes.

I'm quite certain that that is true. The exception, as I interpreted it, is are there 400 of them employed by Martin, as was claimed? That depends on one's definition of the term "luthier". Hence, my comment.

[Steadfastly]

Originally Posted by wisedennis

Have you ever played any “Factory-made guitar”, which can beat or get very close to “High-end Luthier-made” guitars in terms of playability, tone and volume?

If yes, what are they?

All the High-end Luthier builders say no.

[wisedennis]

Originally Posted by Shadowfox

For me that is Furch. Especially their Red lines and customs.

Is Furch red line much better than Orange or rainbow or other colors? I mean.. tonally..?

[fngrpck]

Originally Posted by wisedennis

Have you ever played any “Factory-made guitar”, which can beat or get very close to “High-end Luthier-made” guitars in terms of playability, tone and volume?

If yes, what are they?

I've been to a few concerts (Tommy E, L Juber, L Kottke) where they played factory made guitars and they all sounded superb and two with no electronics.

So "High-end Luthier-made guitars"...Why take a chance?

[jaymarsch]

Interesting discussion and I’ll add a few things from my experience over the past 17 years of owning both hand made single luthier guitars and factory made guitars.
Living in the San Francisco Bay Area, I have been fortunate to be within a 3 hour driving radius of numerous luthiers and high end guitar stores. I also played quite a few boutique instruments over the years at the now defunct Healdsburg Guitar Festival. I have played some incredible vintage instruments, mostly Martins, Gibsons and Washburns that have been amazing guitars. I own 2 gorgeous sounding guitars by a luthier who got much of her experience repairing and rebuilding old Martins, Gibsons, and Guilds.
I have played many luthier built guitars that I wasn’t that impressed with. I have played many factory built guitars that I wasn’t that impressed with as well.
My two custom built small shop luthier built instruments each have something that was not available on a factory built guitar. Those things made the guitar more playable for me, which in turn allows me to play more seamlessly and maximize what the guitar offers in terms of the tone that is the most pleasing to my ears.
Commissioning a small shop, single luthier made instrument is its own thing that includes options that just do not exist with factory built instruments. Working closely with builder during the process reaps it’s own rewards. In my experience, that is reflected in the results.
There are so many guitar choices out there these days, pretty much any player with any budget should be able to find a guitar that can bring them much enjoyment.
Best,
Jayne

[Sage Runner]

The Tone and playability can only be measured when any particular instrument is in your hands. That’s where the rubber meets the road and the only real test be it a Factory Guitar or Boutique Custom. The one thing that you may get with a boutique Builder is aged tone-woods. But that depends on the luthiers stash of goodies. The other thing you get is a guitar that is custom made to your desires if your buying it new for you! There are so many great guitars to choose from now compared to 40 years and before that. I wish I had the selection to choose from back in the Day when I first started playing. But it all good! Play on!!!!

[Russ C]

Originally Posted by wisedennis

Have you ever played any “Factory-made guitar”, which can beat or get very close to “High-end Luthier-made” guitars in terms of playability, tone and volume?

If yes, what are they?

If the “high end luthier made” guitars are competing with factory guitars of a similar price bracket, absolutely I have.
I recently A/B’d a friend’s David Crosby sig. D18 and a D45V with several of those similarly valued high end small shop guitars and none equaled them, in my not so humble opinion.
There are significantly better guitars in the world but without going beyond the above price range I’ve not found one. The D45 is mine and that’s been true for the 10 years I’ve had it.
I also expect that a one-off carefully hand made instrument has a better chance of getting the best out of its ingredients than similar from a high production factory .. but if I had a pocket full of money and a mission to get the best I can with it I believe I’d stand a better chance with the much wider choice available to me from a large factory.
I’m not thrilled by that because I hugely admire good luthiers and want them rewarded for their awesome skills … but my experience has been: if I was to pick blind give me the small shop guitar please, but if I get to go shopping I’d probably come home with one from a big factory.