Italian spruce vs sitka spruce

[Dan B]

Any thoughts / observations? Tonal difference? Difference in bass reponse and dynamics?
I would think the Italian might be warmer / softer... a slight nod in the directoin of cedar, but I could be wrong.
Grateful for any comments...
Cheers,
Dan

[Michael Watts]

http://www.esomogyi.com/tonewoods.html may answer any questions you have.

[Matt Mustapick]

Originally Posted by Dan B

Any thoughts / observations? Tonal difference? Difference in bass reponse and dynamics?
I would think the Italian might be warmer / softer... a slight nod in the directoin of cedar, but I could be wrong.
Grateful for any comments...
Cheers,
Dan

Yes, that's right. While European spruces are said to be genetically identical, there is quite of a bit of variation from region to region. Italian spruce tends generally to be very light and quite flexible...very similar to Engelmann spruce, and it has more in common with cedar than most other spruce varieties. Englemann and Italian spruce are my favorite woods to use on classical and nylon crossover guitars, and they're great to use on steel string guitars as well.

[Jeff M]

I wouldn't get too caught up in the hype.
Italian Spruce (same species as "Europan spruce", "German Spruce". "Alpine spruce", "Bosnian Spruce", "Swiss Spruce"...Picea abies) will sound like....a spruce;
http://www.lutherie.net/eurospruce.html

Depending on the set of wood your builder uses, it can tend to have certain tonal qualities..but again, that's dependant on the set of wood and, much more importantly, your builder.

And then there is the whole issue of..is it really "Italian Spruce"...or maybe some other species?;

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musi...onewoods1.html

"Various species of spruce have been used for steel string guitar tops over the years, and each have their devotees. I'm not going to get into speculating about predicting the sound of individual species, partly because of the extreme difficulty in making a positive identification.

Time for an anecdote:

I attended the A.S.I.A. Symposium in 1995 and saw a number of vendors selling guitar tops in the exhibition hall. At dinner that evening I sat at a large table with Tom Humphrey, the well known classical guitar builder. Tom was talking to one of the spruce suppliers and describing how he had selected the Adirondack spruce (also known as red spruce) tops he'd bought earlier.

I asked the vendor about his spruce, "Do you know why it's called 'red' and how can you distinguish it from other spruce." He told me," I really don't know. I can't tell it apart from other species. I just have to take the word of the man who brings me the logs. He says it's red spruce." "

and...

"German spruce sold to the lutherie world is often spruce sold by German dealers, and whatever species of spruce it actually is tends to come from a variety of sources, including a certain amount historically imported from the US and Canada. Engelmann spruce, for example, is very popular among luthiers and for decades has been exported to Europe where it has been sold back to Americans (among others) as, you guessed it, German spruce. And because of the lutherie trade, spruce from anywhere in Europe is pretty much identified now as German spruce.

Unless you cut the tree yourself or can be absolutely certain where that tree was harvested, it is probably safest to just call it spruce. If you're certain it grew and was harvested in Europe, there's no point in getting your turban in a twist over common names. If someone says German spruce, just think, "OK, Picea abies, orEuropean spruce."

[ljguitar]

Hi Dan...
I own an OM with an Italian Spruce top, and it is more similar to Englemann Spuce tops built by the same builder than Sitka. Much mellower than comparable Sitka builds, and very smooth in the upper registers.

Despite what some think, I find that Spruce is not Spruce is not Spruce. There can be vast tonal differences in the different varieties of Spruce built by the same builder in configurations where all that changes is the top wood.

[Jeff M]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Dan...
I own an OM with an Italian Spruce top, and it is more similar to Englemann Spuce tops built by the same builder than Sitka. Much mellower than comparable Sitka builds, and very smooth in the upper registers.

Despite what some think, I find that Spruce is not Spruce is not Spruce. There can be vast tonal differences in the different varieties of Spruce built by the same builder in configurations where all that changes is the top wood.

I'll disagree here with you here LJ, but it is a subtle disagreement.

It all boils down to the builder. They are "prejudicing" the outcome of how their guitar sounds by choosing sets of wood that they believe will give them the tone they are looking for...and then building the guitar accordingly.

You go to Bashkin and tell him you want a guitar that will emphasize fine nuances of fingerstyle playing and he will go to his stash of "Italian" spruce and pick out a set.
Say the same thing to Kevin Ryan and he will go to his set of Engelmann.
To Jim Olson and he will turn to his stash of.....cedar.
Go to Richard Hoover and he will pick out Carpathian spruce...and tell that there are some thoughts that it is actually derived from Adirondack seedlings brought to Europe a hundred years ago. (At which point I wonder...Hmmm....Adirondack for subtle fingerstyle nuances? Interesting.)
(I've had these discussions with each of these builders.)

I defy any player or builder to sit in a room of 100 guitars, listen to Laurence Juber play them, and accurately determine what area of Europe the wood came from...or even it it is Picea Abies vs Engelmann vs some other spruce.
Sit a builder in a room of 100 guitars HE built and do the same test and I believe his accuracy will improve...though there is that story from about 8 years ago of George Lowden sitting around in his shop in Ireland with his builders after work one day doing such a "blindfold test" and miss-identifying many of the woods they were listening to.

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by Dan B

Any thoughts / observations? Tonal difference? Difference in bass reponse and dynamics?
I would think the Italian might be warmer / softer... a slight nod in the directoin of cedar, but I could be wrong.
Grateful for any comments...
Cheers,
Dan

This is just my generalization, but I feel Italian has more of a smooth response in the trebles. Sitka seems faster responding in the trebles, where the notes seem to jump out quicker.

[690MBCOMMANDO]

Italian/Euro spruce is my favorite. Lively, expressive and superb for strumming, fingerstyling at any attack

[gtr4me]

Originally Posted by 690MBCOMMANDO

Italian/Euro spruce is my favorite. Lively, expressive and superb for strumming, fingerstyling at any attack

That sounds like my experience with sitka - expressive, articulate, and great for strumming too.

[690MBCOMMANDO]

Originally Posted by gtr4me

That sounds like my experience with sitka - expressive, articulate, and great for strumming too.

I like Sitka too (highly underrated IMO). However, I find Euro spruce (Italian, etc.) to be more refined sounding and more complex IMO.

[min7b5]

Comparing Italian to engelman probably explains why, like german spruce, I’ve yet to play a guitar with those woods that did it for me. I think because I play with a pretty stout attack I lean much more towards the red spruce side of things. I also I agree that sitka (like mahogany) is very underrated because it’s so common. Some of the best guitars I’ve played where sitka, particularly bear claw sitka. My friend's Ryan Nightingale with braz/sitka is one of the biggest sounding guitar I’ve ever hear... my sitka topped OM/PW was pretty steller too...

[JimR]

Just my opinion, but I think that regardless of the species of wood, or it's variations, the bottom line is the builder and the voicing of the individual guitar. I've played/heard all representatives of the commonly used Spruce (Sitka, Engelmann, Adirondack, European) that sound ordinary and I've heard and played others that sounded amazing. I don't think you can accurately generalize with any of them. I've just recently gained a great respect for Redwood as a top-wood, and with regard to this particular guitar, it's fantastic!

[690MBCOMMANDO]

One important (but implied) caveat is that the most important factor is the builder.

I've played "superior" wood from some brands that sounds dull and dead.

Other than cosmetics, everything is important.

[gtr4me]

Originally Posted by 690MBCOMMANDO

I like Sitka too (highly underrated IMO). However, I find Euro spruce (Italian, etc.) to be more refined sounding and more complex IMO.

I think I just must not get the distinction, as I have heard a few of the really great players getting very articulate and refined overtones out of guitars using sitka, and sounding the way I hear people describing German. Just my experience. Not that I have any special allegiance to sitka, as I have guitars with other tops, just that I find lots of variation, and commonality, across the whole spruce family.

And I agree, and would go one further, that the builder impacts tone the most, then the fingers of the player, then the general species of the top wood, then the minutia takes over and it is anybodies argument.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Jeff M

...I'll disagree here with you here LJ, but it is a subtle disagreement.
...It all boils down to the builder.

Hi Jeff...
We agree that it all boils down to the builder, but no builder I know of gets the same sound out of Italian, German, Sitka and Adirondack. They will get different variants of tone when working them and choose certain ones for the tone they are aiming for.

I really don't know if a builder could take a piece of Italian and shape it to sound like Adirondack...

Different varieties of Spruce produce different tone from the same builder, and if their building skills are high, they get the same type of tone from the same type of wood repeatedly while having some capability to tweak it.

But I have never heard of a builder just randomly selecting any old piece of spruce to build a guitar irrespective of the species.