Are "covers" at open mics being squeezed out?

[Franklin'sTower]

Originally Posted by Gasworker

Sorry I will edit. I removed that reference it only appears in your quoted comment I think you can edit it from there. Sorry. Oh and I am not sorry for supporting musicians on a forum populated by musicians. Actually seems kind of natural.
Spook did you say free coffee? hmmmm New Mexico eh??

Done. Although I'm still confused as to why you think I do not support musicians.

I think I'm just going to move on, there's clearly some kind of communication breakdown

Originally Posted by royd

The current ASCAP/BMI/SESAC scheme doesn't work and I think is, in the long run detrimental to music and musicians.

First, the licensing fees, in spite of what has been said, are not insignificant, especially for small struggling venues.

The fees that are collected are not based on the realities of either the venues or the artists. A small coffeehouse that allows covers will not likely have very many folk playing top 40 tunes (I've yet to hear an solo acoustic player do a Lady Gaga tune) but they pay the same fees as a bar with a top 40 cover band.

OTOH, I may hear a cover of a Peter Mulvey song or a Greg Greenway song. They'll likely get nothing from the distribution scheme of the agencies that does not count those outside of the mainstream. The reality then is that little coffeehouse is subsidizing artists like Lady Gaga rather than the artists whose works is actually being played in the venue.

This is my concern.

[buzzardwhiskey]

Great post ryod that pretty much sums up my understanding! I would add that the current system sucks for patrons too. When I do covers, people LIKE it.

It's the patrons that have all the power here, and that's who (as a coffee shop owner) I'd be preaching to.

[Landru]

Originally Posted by Tobias Music

At the beginning of the year, a small Italian Restaurant that I frequent asked if we knew anyone who might be able to play some soft, acoustic, background music on Valentines Day for their diners. I recommended a guy who works across the street from us. He ended up playing a few sets during the dinner hours. This was an unannounced little background session. The restaurant owner came up to me a 4-5 weeks later and said that BMI sent them a letter demanding that they purchase a license.
This was the one and only time that the restaurant had any kind of a live performance. The diners did not come in to hear music, they came in to eat meatballs.
In my opinion, a situation like this can give the BMI hounds a bad reputation. The restaurant didn't profit from the live music.
Lets assume that the musician was paid for the gig. Shouldn't BMI go after the musician instead ? I'm not sure how this copywrite / license stuff works.

O.K. Tobias Music; I'd like to come into your store and take one guitar of my choice. This will be the only time I do this - I won't pay you for it, but don't sue me or report me to the police for theft, as you music store owner hounds will get a bad reputation. I'll be in tonight around 11PM - I'll let myself in and lock the door on the way out. Except for one missing guitar, you'll never know I was there. Thanks - Landru

[Franklin'sTower]

Originally Posted by Landru

O.K. Tobias Music; I'd like to come into your store and take one guitar of my choice. This will be the only time I do this - I won't pay you for it, but don't sue me or report me to the police for theft, as you music store owner hounds will get a bad reputation. I'll be in tonight around 11PM - I'll let myself in and lock the door on the way out. Except for one missing guitar, you'll never know I was there. Thanks - Landru

Difference is, he would be losing money if you did that.

The artists whose songs were covered at this restaurant, on the other hand, would likely not see a dime whether this fee was paid to BMI or not.

[The Growler]

Originally Posted by dneal

Does this mean I have to stop covering "Smelly Cat"?

Fortunately, yes.

[StringFive]

The folk music boom of the 60's would have never happened if every coffee shop had to pay to allow musicians to sing songs written by someone else.

Today, if Arlo Guthrie, for example, came to sit in, he couldn't sing 3/4 of his material.

[royd]

Originally Posted by Landru

O.K. Tobias Music; I'd like to come into your store and take one guitar of my choice. This will be the only time I do this - I won't pay you for it, but don't sue me or report me to the police for theft, as you music store owner hounds will get a bad reputation. I'll be in tonight around 11PM - I'll let myself in and lock the door on the way out. Except for one missing guitar, you'll never know I was there. Thanks - Landru

Landru... let's continue your analogy here...

You go into Tobias music and take that beautiful Greenfield off the wall, pay the proprietor for it and walk out. Then Tobias music makes its payment to the licensing agency who split the money among the various guitar manufacturers based on the guitars that were used in the top 300 tours last year. 30% of the money goes to Fender. 30% goes to Gibson. 15% goes to Taylor. 10% goes to Martin. The remainder goes to a number of smaller companies, but none to Greenfield because the licensing company didn't see any Greenfields on one of those tours last year.

[Landru]

Originally Posted by Franklin'sTower

Difference is, he would be losing money if you did that.

The artists whose songs were covered at this restaurant, on the other hand, would likely not see a dime whether this fee was paid to BMI or not.

That is an answer that has not been researched for factual accuracy. So ASCAP and BMI and SESAC charge fees and do what . . . buy blow and BMW's with the cash? You don't know or you wouldn't make such statements, and this is a serious issue - get your facts straight when trying to suggest thievery instead of royalty collection.

Songwriters should or should not be paid for their work, yes or no? If no, than neither should you, or Tobias Music, or Arnie's Sandwich Shack, or Verizon. How about we tap into a phone line and make free calls around the world - Woo Hoo - no one knows, no one gets hurt, everybody happy - except for Verizon. My example to Tobias is the same thing as not paying for music - it's called theft.

Some folks don't seem to mind songwriters being stolen from, as it appears to them that it's not real - you can bet your life that these folks aren't songwriters. However, bring it home to your income earning device, and it's always different.

Roll away the dew from your eyes, Franklin - next theft might be something of yours.

Pretty strange for me to see that on an acoustic guitar players site, there are so many who are actively embracing stealingl from songwriters and artists . . . . . maybe I should move to a more professional site, because in a land of no ears, yelling makes no difference.

[drumstrummer]

Originally Posted by royd

FWIW, playing public domain songs is not always a solution. Someone picks up a public domain song and registers their "arrangement" of it and suddenly ASCAP/BMI/SESAC are collecting fees.

This, along with performing my own original work, has been my solution - but not without fear. What reliable guidance is there for determining what traditional/folk music is truly safely in the public domain?

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Blackville

The small coffeehouse I frequent was told the fee would be $650 per year. Sounds insignificant I suppose, but honestly the fellow makes no money at night and only opens on Wednesday nights for the sake of providing a place for playing music.

$650/year, once a week, 50 weeks a year = $13 a night.

Seems like you should be able to either:

a) Pass that hat, "Hey, we've got a tip jar up here, it costs us some money to put this on so if y'all could each throw in a buck or two, it'd be appreciated" I'm willing to bet you'd make more than $13.

or

b) Have the MC between acts say something like, "Hey, guys, just wanted to let you know that it does cost something to keep this place open and run this open mic, and we want to keep this free, so do us as favor and buy a cupcake or a latte."

And, you know, I think you might sell five lattes if you did that, which is more than going to cover your $13 even after the cost of beans and milk.

For the patrons of such a venue to feel that buying a cup of coffee is the unofficial price of a couple of hours entertainment, that's not exactly a bad thing (especially if it's voluntary-but-expected-unless-you're-broke, you know?) Or charge performers two dollars, which I've seen open mics do plenty of times.

Again, we're talking $13 a night. Even if you double it because a BMI license is just as expensive, there is no way this should be a deal-breaker.

That any of these options would easily cover the cost of the license (with money to spare, almost certainly!) makes the point. There's is no reason why the need for a license should stop these events from happening.

[Tobias Music]

What I was trying to figure out was....since the restaurant didn't profit from the live music, shouldnt BMI go after the performer instead ?
Oh, and Landru, be sure to bring some doggie treats for Zeus when you stop by. He loves a late nite snack.

[ryanhoots]

Originally Posted by Landru

My example to Tobias is the same thing as not paying for music - it's called theft.

Actually, no, it's not theft, it's copyright infringement, there's a legal difference. Theft is the stealing of something tangible, while copyright infringement is the stealing of ideas. Both are bad, but they are different problems.

But, that's where it starts to get confusing thanks to the good 'ol digital age.

If I illegally download an album, is it copyright infringement or theft? There has to be a difference between copyright infringement and theft, but some things aren't clear cut.

Reminds me of something I jokingly said to a friend a while ago.

Originally Posted by Ryan Hoots

An open letter to the twenty-first century: Hi. I love your computers, your fancy electric guitars, and Owl City. I hate your lifestyle. If I could, I'd leave you for your younger, happier sister, the seventeenth century. Best wishes, Ryan Hoots.

[Landru]

Originally Posted by royd

Landru... let's continue your analogy here...

You go into Tobias music and take that beautiful Greenfield off the wall, pay the proprietor for it and walk out. Then Tobias music makes its payment to the licensing agency who split the money among the various guitar manufacturers based on the guitars that were used in the top 300 tours last year. 30% of the money goes to Fender. 30% goes to Gibson. 15% goes to Taylor. 10% goes to Martin. The remainder goes to a number of smaller companies, but none to Greenfield because the licensing company didn't see any Greenfields on one of those tours last year.

Royd; I didn't steal a Greenfield.

I can't stop you from endorsing breaking the laws of intellectual property and the system of royalty collection it employs - enjoy your ill-gotten gains, you sneaky person. When it happens to you, you'll be the first to shout loud from the highest mountain, "I've been robbed - help me!"

[Judson]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

$650/year, once a week, 50 weeks a year = $13 a night.

Seems like you should be able to :

a) Pass that hat.

We agree ... and that's what we've been doing.

As amateur performers, we're not making any money. The coffee shop stays open at night when there's no other business just to provide us amateurs with a place play and to enjoy emulating artists we love. And we're making sure that some way, some how, Townes Van Zandt's estate gets a buck in the process...

[yammieplaya]

I wish I could drink coffee in the evening.
Keeps me up all night.