“Dead” fretted bass note

Jimi2 · #1 03-26-2024, 08:29 AM

I just picked up a used Lowden that was otherwise a great deal, but fretting a low G on the sixth string produces a “dead” sounding thud - the note sounds but doesn’t sustain like other nearby notes do.

I originally restrung it with a .060 gauge sixth string, as I want to use it for some really low tunings, and the thud was really pronounced. It does seem a bit improved after going to a more normal gauge of .056. It’s not a fret issue, as it’s always that G regardless of which tuning I’m in and therefore which fret it’s at.

Does it sound like this could be fixed by a setup? I do have a return option, but the shop is in the Netherlands, so it would be costly to return. And I otherwise like the guitar.

Bob Womack · #2 03-26-2024, 08:41 AM

I have heard of thunky F# notes on the low E but this is the first I've heard of a G. I have a lovely 1999 Taylor K14c that had a thunky F#. I gave it some time and within a few years the thunk completely disappeared. YMMV.

Bob

warfrat73 · #3 03-26-2024, 08:43 AM

It sounds like there's a node around the frequency of that G note. The same frequency interactions that can cause wolf tones can also cause interference patterns that deaden certain notes.

Adding a bit of weight to the bridge or partially blocking the sound hole can shift the frequency out of that effected range. But, beyond that, there's not much to be done... if that is in fact what it is.

warfrat73 · #4 03-26-2024, 08:45 AM

Here's a pretty good previous thread on the issue: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=617040

Alan Carruth · #5 03-26-2024, 08:46 AM

That sounds like it's the usual guitar 'wolf' note. The 'main air' ('rum jug') resonance matches the pitch of that low G. Since the top rides along with the air pressure changes inside the box it's easy for the string to move the bridge at that pitch, and the guitar is very effective at turning string energy into sound. You get a note that's much more powerful, but since there's only a limited amount of energy in a plucked string it lacks sustain. Twice as powerful doesn't sound twice as loud, but the lack of sustain stands out. Also, because the bridge is moving when it's supposed to be 'fixed' the pitch of the note can be uncertain.

The easy ways to check this are to:
1) tune the guitar down a half step, and see if the problem still occurs on the same fret: if it's a 'wolf' in will move up one fret to stay at the same G pitch. If it doesn't, it could be a fret issue.
2) cover part of the sound hole with a taped on piece of card stock. This will drop the 'air' pitch, and move the wolf down.

Most of the fides for this call for some level of modification of the guitar. If you can reduce the sound hole size gracefully, and adjust the pitch so that it falls between F# and G, it usually won't be s much of an issue. Sometimes a more permanent adjustment is to shave back braces. This increases the 'compliance' of the back, and can shift the 'air' pitch down as much as a couple of semitones in some cases. It's much less problematic than shaving top braces, but still would probably void any warranty.

b1j · #6 03-26-2024, 10:03 AM

Acoustic guitar without a definitive low G? Trade it.

Jimi2 · #7 03-26-2024, 10:07 AM

Thanks guys. I was, I guess naively, hoping it might be related to nut/saddle issues, as it seems slightly better upon restringing with the .056. It definitely stays at that G - third fret in standard, fifth fret in drop D. I’ll check out that thread.

This is a used F23 fan fret and not under warranty, though I do have thirty days to return. But It only cost around $3000, and the likelihood of finding another Lowden fan fret I could afford is tiny, so I’d hate to return it. The extra bass scale length is great for tuning down to C or as low as B, and it sounds great otherwise.

b1j · #8 03-26-2024, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimi2

Thanks guys. I was, I guess naively, hoping it might be related to nut/saddle issues, as it seems slightly better upon restringing with the .056. It definitely stays at that G - third fret in standard, fifth fret in drop D. I’ll check out that thread.

This is a used F23 fan fret and not under warranty, though I do have thirty days to return. But It only cost around $3000, and the likelihood of finding another Lowden fan fret I could afford is tiny, so I’d hate to return it. The extra bass scale length is great for tuning down to C or as low as B, and it sounds great otherwise.

When Only a Lowden Is Good Enough, $3,000 makes a great deal. But why was this one available at that price? Would any other $3,000 guitar satisfy?

Jimi2 · #9 03-26-2024, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b1j

When Only a Lowden Is Good Enough, $3,000 makes a great deal. But why was this one available at that price? Would any other $3,000 guitar satisfy?

It’s a ten year old guitar with numerous dings all around. Had strap buttons installed and removed. Looks good from a distance and mostly sounds great. I don’t know of other fan frets in that range and quality, though they may be out there.

Jimi2 · #10 03-26-2024, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

That sounds like it's the usual guitar 'wolf' note. The 'main air' ('rum jug') resonance matches the pitch of that low G. Since the top rides along with the air pressure changes inside the box it's easy for the string to move the bridge at that pitch, and the guitar is very effective at turning string energy into sound. You get a note that's much more powerful, but since there's only a limited amount of energy in a plucked string it lacks sustain. Twice as powerful doesn't sound twice as loud, but the lack of sustain stands out. Also, because the bridge is moving when it's supposed to be 'fixed' the pitch of the note can be uncertain.

The easy ways to check this are to:
1) tune the guitar down a half step, and see if the problem still occurs on the same fret: if it's a 'wolf' in will move up one fret to stay at the same G pitch. If it doesn't, it could be a fret issue.
2) cover part of the sound hole with a taped on piece of card stock. This will drop the 'air' pitch, and move the wolf down.

Most of the fides for this call for some level of modification of the guitar. If you can reduce the sound hole size gracefully, and adjust the pitch so that it falls between F# and G, it usually won't be s much of an issue. Sometimes a more permanent adjustment is to shave back braces. This increases the 'compliance' of the back, and can shift the 'air' pitch down as much as a couple of semitones in some cases. It's much less problematic than shaving top braces, but still would probably void any warranty.

Alan, thanks for the detailed response. I will try the cardboard trick, hopefully tonight or tomorrow. Maybe an insert would do it. And I’ll plan on having my luthier take a look ASAP. Fortunately, I’ve got 30 days to return.

It’s a very lightly built guitar, which I gather doesn’t help.

Jimi2 · #11 03-26-2024, 03:32 PM

Duplicate post

JayBee1404 · #12 03-27-2024, 12:01 AM

I suspect it’s possible the OP might find that changing to another Lowden might result in the duddy ‘G’ problem following him. I’ve owned three Lowdens, an O-10, O-25, and my current F-23. All three had that 6th-string 3rd-fret duddy ‘G’ note, and I’ve always thought it’s a ‘Lowden thing’, maybe something to do with their bracing pattern or something like that.

Having said that, it’s never bothered me because I use my guitars to accompany my vocals, not to play instrumental pieces (I’m not that good a player!) so the duddy ‘G’ tends to be lost in the overall mix. For me, it’s just a part of the Lowden ‘character’ that I accept in exchange for the other, great, things about their guitars.

Of course, I could be completely wrong - I remember being wrong once before…

As always, the standard disclaimer applies - IMHO. However, I realise that YMMV, and I’m cool with that.

Robin, Wales · #13 03-27-2024, 05:29 AM

You should rule out a poorly seated fret. This will "kill" a note. Take a small pin hammer and gently tap the fret at different points along its length. It should sound quite solid. If the sound changes to a duller thud under the 6th string than you have found your issue (which can be caused by the fret saw just making a slightly wider cut at that point).

Usually, wicking a tiny drop of very low viscosity superglue under the fret at that point solves the "dead note" issue.

Your problem may well be the "wolf note" syndrome - but it is worth tapping the fret with a hammer just to check the seating.

Jimi2 · #14 03-27-2024, 05:46 AM

Well, I cut a piece of cardboard with an approximately three inch diameter opening (the guitar’s sound hole is four inches across) and taped it on- problem solved. That G rings out as expected. It’s really a big difference.

I only tried that one size - perhaps something with a bigger opening would work as well. Now I’m wondering how I’d go about getting a wooden insert that wouldn’t look terrible.

Rodger · #15 03-27-2024, 06:15 AM

I've experienced it a fair amount on larger guitars (dreads). When trying out a new guitar, it's one of the first things I check after tuning to standard pitch. I call it a "thuddy G." I've had a couple custom builds done where I wanted this to not be a problem. Both luthiers knew what I was talking about.

I'm glad the cardboard trick worked for you! I have a Collings D2H that has this, Gonna try the trick and see what happens. I've had the Collings for over 15 years and never fully enjoyed playing it because of the G issue. Maybe this will change that.