Why Larrivée Switched to Sapele -03s

[runamuck]

I've used sapele for 25 years in furniture. I've always heard it pronounced, "sup-ee-lay" by every supplier I've ever bought it from.

In my opinion, sapele is not an equal to mahogany for instrument making; it's heavier, seems to have more stress in the wood, is not as dimensionally stable, does not carves as beautifully, nor does it patina with the subtlety of mahogany.

BTW: there really is no such thing as "brazilian mahogany" except when clever people market it that way. Genuine Mahogany is a specie independent of where it is grown.

Jim McCarthy

[tadol]

Actually, when I was talking to Matthew Larrivee a week or so ago, he indicated they were not switching to sapele, but to khaya, an african mahogany. It was visually and tonally so close to south american mahogany, I'd bet that 99% of you would have to guess which was which, and still be wrong half the time. It is beautiful stuff, and I looked at a few sets that looked more like premium mahogany than premium mahogany does -

They did use Sapele for some instruments, but prefered the Khaya.

Tad

[lalowdwn1]

They switched for cost concerns. In contrast with other posters that commented, I think it was an unfortunate move, as I do not think sapele (suh-pell-ee) is remotely comparable to swietenia, or true mahogany.

That does not mean it is not a good tone wood (it is), but I do not like it, and I think it is disingenuous to say it is comparable - that is a marketing ploy. For so much time we all spend analyzing the minutia of guitars and guitar-building, folks just fold to the big builders' supposition that sapele = mahogany. I do not get it. It is a different tone wood with its own general tone signature. I think, if any comparison is necessary, it sounds tremendously like maple.

Neither sapele nor khaya are mahognay (no matter what wiki tells you) - they are different genera from swietenia. I think khaya is closer in tone and look, so I commend Larrivee for that, but it is still unfortunate. I do think honduran/cuban mahoganies will swing back, as they grow faster than brazilian rosewood.

Oddly I think the SP may have stood for "special" - a test run before switching the -03's to sapele/doorpanelling. (sorry - my opinion of the tone wood)

[tadol]

Sorry, but NO, they did not switch strictly due to cost concerns. Another BIG part of the reason was their inability to get a continuous supply of good quality material. Alot of the south american mahogany that is being harvested these days is pretty poor stuff. To build in the quantity they need to produce, they need good quality wood readily available. They cannot build a batch of exceptional mahogany guitars this month, and then make a bunch next month with some poor quality SA mahogany because that's all that's available. Who'd buy them? Or do you suggest they build nothing those months, lay off all their people, and not sell any guitars?

Sapele is being heavily used by other VERY well known makers. It is sold by them as Mahogany, usually heavily stained. Larrivee does not stain any of their wood - except for sunbursts - so they cannot hide poor quality stock. Cuban mahogany was nearly decimated well over a century ago, and will never be available in adequate quantities to build almost anything, especially entry-level guitars like the -03 series. It is still a very difficult to obtain material in any quantity. Honduran has similar problems.

You are welcome to email the company, or just drop by their factory, as I did. I talked to Jean Larrivee and to his son Matthew, saw their wood stock, talked about the materials, and they were very up-front and honest about why they were making changes. They put down their tools, put the instruments they were working on aside for a little while, and were very honest about what they do, and why. Of course cost is always a concern - they do not want to or try to build very expensive guitars, so they do have to pay attention to the costs of materials. But they also insist on building very good quality solid wood instruments, and if they cannot consistently get good quality material from one continent, they will go to another.

It's not a conspiracy - they aren't sitting in a boardroom trying to figure out how to screw with guitar players or come up with "marketing ploys". They are doing what they believe they have to do to keep the quality of their guitars at the level they demand. Its called integrity -

Let us know when you have 40 years of building experience and 20 thousand instruments under your belt with your name on them. In the meantime, I respect his decisions, and I trust his motivations. Whether its starting to laminate some of his neck blanks, or starting to use beautiful African mahogany rather than using lesser quality south american stock - he builds some nice guitars.

Sorry - had to get that off my chest -

Tad

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by tadol

Sorry, but NO, they did not switch strictly due to cost concerns. Another BIG part of the reason was their inability to get a continuous supply of good quality material.

I guess we're all saying the same thing here.

They are unable to get a continuous supply of good quality material -- at the right cost, without increasing the price of their instruments.

Mahogany is still used on plenty of instruments (evidence that there is still reasonable supply out there).

However it is replaced by sapele on several entry-level instruments (further evidence that the change is mostly driven by cost).

[gtr4me]

Originally Posted by lalowdwn1

That does not mean it is not a good tone wood (it is), but I do not like it, and I think it is disingenuous to say it is comparable - that is a marketing ploy. For so much time we all spend analyzing the minutia of guitars and guitar-building, folks just fold to the big builders' supposition that sapele = mahogany. I do not get it. It is a different tone wood with its own general tone signature. I think, if any comparison is necessary, it sounds tremendously like maple.

How different our perspectives can be. Because, if there is any marketing ploy out there, I tend to think it is in the magic mojo assigned to the markup of Honduran mahogany and BRW. Now that's a ploy. I've owned two sapelle guitars. They both sounded like mahogany.

[Lawn Jockey]

Originally Posted by JoeNewbie

However it is replaced by sapele on several entry-level instruments (further evidence that the change is mostly driven by cost).

It's also on some of the upper-crust Larrivee's as evidenced here and here.

[flaggerphil]

I've had a couple of sapele guitars over the years and I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between it and mahogany. Maybe a tad brighter sometimes, but it is very, very similar to mahogany. And there's some great looking sapele wood out there, too.

As to the reason for the switch, I'll go with what Matthew Larrivee told me and others.

[lalowdwn1]

Originally Posted by tadol

Sorry, but NO, they did not switch strictly due to cost concerns. Another BIG part of the reason was their inability to get a continuous supply of good quality material. Alot of the south american mahogany that is being harvested these days is pretty poor stuff. To build in the quantity they need to produce, they need good quality wood readily available. They cannot build a batch of exceptional mahogany guitars this month, and then make a bunch next month with some poor quality SA mahogany because that's all that's available. Who'd buy them? Or do you suggest they build nothing those months, lay off all their people, and not sell any guitars?

Sapele is being heavily used by other VERY well known makers. It is sold by them as Mahogany, usually heavily stained. Larrivee does not stain any of their wood - except for sunbursts - so they cannot hide poor quality stock. Cuban mahogany was nearly decimated well over a century ago, and will never be available in adequate quantities to build almost anything, especially entry-level guitars like the -03 series. It is still a very difficult to obtain material in any quantity. Honduran has similar problems.

You are welcome to email the company, or just drop by their factory, as I did. I talked to Jean Larrivee and to his son Matthew, saw their wood stock, talked about the materials, and they were very up-front and honest about why they were making changes. They put down their tools, put the instruments they were working on aside for a little while, and were very honest about what they do, and why. Of course cost is always a concern - they do not want to or try to build very expensive guitars, so they do have to pay attention to the costs of materials. But they also insist on building very good quality solid wood instruments, and if they cannot consistently get good quality material from one continent, they will go to another.

It's not a conspiracy - they aren't sitting in a boardroom trying to figure out how to screw with guitar players or come up with "marketing ploys". They are doing what they believe they have to do to keep the quality of their guitars at the level they demand. Its called integrity -

Let us know when you have 40 years of building experience and 20 thousand instruments under your belt with your name on them. In the meantime, I respect his decisions, and I trust his motivations. Whether its starting to laminate some of his neck blanks, or starting to use beautiful African mahogany rather than using lesser quality south american stock - he builds some nice guitars.

Sorry - had to get that off my chest -

Tad

Tad-

Major Larivee fan here - pretty sure longer than you (from the LGF).

You proved my point - cost. They cannot find supply, though supply is available, which means they cannot get supply at cost feasible to produce -03's. That means they changed for cost concerns. That is OK!!! I understand, and like I said, it is just unfortunate -but a fact of the market.

And I was not clear - never did I perceive larrivee as promulgating marketing ploys...I meant t*yl*r and CFM (who switches at random according to supply - implying the comparable nature of the woods).

It still baffles my mind that we instantly ascribe sapele to be equal to mahogany while we deconstruct every other difference between guitars. I aslso said sapele was a good tone wood - just not mahogany. It is different and should be treated as such.

LJ - the high end sapele larrivees are exquisite - I have been floating the idea of getting the super quilted one off Dave at guitaradoptions since the day he got it - might still yet!!

[Antonio Salieri]

I'm curious, how many people here would notice a difference in sound in a blind comparrison? Not many is my guess.

[lone eskimo]

Originally Posted by Antonio Salieri

I'm curious, how many people here would notice a difference in sound in a blind comparrison? Not many is my guess.

I ran a heated post like this awhile back- Bob Taylor claims in an interview in Premier Guitar that 95% of the guitar's sound is in the build (that's why Taylors sound like Taylors and Martins sound like Martins- despite the tonewoods) and if blindfolded- people would become confused and not able to tell the tonewoods from each other (though most think they can). I haven't tried it myself but I suspect he's probably right.

I have a '75 Martin D-28 (rosewood) and I love it
I have a '77 Guild D-35 (Mahogany) and I love it
I also have a '08 Larrivee 0M-03 (Sapele) and I love it too!

Mike

[runamuck]

Contrary to what some people are saying here, good quality, Genuine Mahogany is NOT readily available. Sure, I could order 1000 board feet of the stuff tomorrow and have it delivered within a week. But it's junk compared to what was available just 3 or 4 years ago.

Most of it is plantation grown in Mexico and Central America and they're growing the trees in sub-standard soil and harvesting before they're mature. The wood is pale, the boards are narrow and the wood is considerably softer than old growth. Even though mahogany lumber sorted out for the musical instrument trade is premium quality, there has been a decline in the quality of that as well.

Large manufacturers who build alot of instruments each year have no choice but to use alternatives such as Khaya.

Jim McCarthy

[tadol]

Jim - thanks for saying it simply -

I guess that the other option for Larrivee would have been to start putting a dark stain on the inferior wood so people wouldn't really notice, but that would have been far less acceptable to me -

Tad

[merlin666]

This is an old thread and this may have been mentioned a few times since, but I just visited the Larrivee website and now their higher end Mahogany series (i.e. 05 and 50) clearly state:

*All mahogany is FSC certified Khaya, commonly know as African mahogany or tropical mahogany.

So I assume that Larrivee is not using any "Honduran" at all anymore.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by lalowdwn1

Tad-

Major Larivee fan here - pretty sure longer than you (from the LGF).

You proved my point - cost. They cannot find supply, though supply is available, which means they cannot get supply at cost feasible to produce -03's. That means they changed for cost concerns. That is OK!!! I understand, and like I said, it is just unfortunate -but a fact of the market.

And I was not clear - never did I perceive larrivee as promulgating marketing ploys...I meant t*yl*r and CFM (who switches at random according to supply - implying the comparable nature of the woods).

It still baffles my mind that we instantly ascribe sapele to be equal to mahogany while we deconstruct every other difference between guitars. I aslso said sapele was a good tone wood - just not mahogany. It is different and should be treated as such.

LJ - the high end sapele larrivees are exquisite - I have been floating the idea of getting the super quilted one off Dave at guitaradoptions since the day he got it - might still yet!!

I am fortunate to have purchased a custom quilted hog L03 with a western red cedar top for $1200 new. It's a beautiful guitar with a beautiful overtones and sustain.
No matter what the going price is for used Larrivees, I wouldn't part with it for less than $1500 even though I have no intentions of selling it. Larrivees are probably undervalued IMHO. Sign me a very happy Larrivee fan.