Way more than expected difference in sound from new bridge pins

[Monk of Funk]

Originally Posted by BoomChuck

Ok, here we go:

Ebony: https://instaud.io/private/9e242feb1...fc83713ac5b19e
Plastic: https://instaud.io/private/cf6b77793...a5a7dd207ae54c

Not scientific by any means. I let the guitar sit for about an hour, recorded the "Ebony" clip, then, without changing the strings, changed back to plastic, recorded the "Plastic" clip. The phrases aren't identical but they're the same idea. I recorded into an AKG C414 that was about a foot away, pointed at the lower part of the upper bout of the guitar. Mic placement was consistent enough that it shouldn't play a part.

I have to admit that in the impartial light of the microphone the change isn't quite as drastic but it's still quite noticeable, with ebony pins the guitar sounds way more articulate, has a bit more bass, and is a little louder.

The guitar is a Boucher Dreadnaught from 2009, Adirondack top, Sapele back and sides, satin finish.

The rest of the chain is AKG C414->Apogee Quartet. MP3 conversion through Adobe Media Encoder.

Edit: just realized that the Plastic clip is cut short but the source file is long gone... Hopefully it's enough to get the picture.

I could barely tell a difference. The difference is far too little in comparison to how easily the sound can be changed with mic placement, to attribute any difference to bridge pins from those recordings, for me.

I would imagine though, that material and size would make some sort of difference, just not a really great one.

[Daion78]

The take-away that I have acted upon in these threads is the importance of the ball end against the bridge plate. After decades of changing strings I now use my little iinspection mirror to check that as I string the guitar.

[Pitar]

Power of suggestion? Product of desire?

These new sonic enhancement experiences, were they observed with or without a string change? Tell the troof.

[RustyZombie]

Originally Posted by Pitar

Power of suggestion? Product of desire?

These new sonic enhancement experiences, were they observed with or without a string change? Tell the troof.

It shows that you didn't read the whole thread. Or even the first post that well, for that matter.

The OP had already stated that:

He expected quite the opposite, that there would be little change at best.

He desired a change in looks.

And that they were observed without a string change.

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

A couple of points ...

... and a great post. Thanks for taking the time to do it.

[D. Shelton]

Originally Posted by Daion78

The take-away that I have acted upon in these threads is the importance of the ball end against the bridge plate. After decades of changing strings I now use my little iinspection mirror to check that as I string the guitar.

So, what do you do to assure proper seating?
Just inspect and adjust (turn) , or is there some trick like
grinding seats into the pin ends?
(never thought about this before)

[guit3090]

I liked the sound with plastic pins better.

[ac2300]

Originally Posted by fazool

A certain former AGF sponsor makes a similar product that always results in a popcorn-worthy thread that typically ends in napalm.

Are you making fun of us , it usually is entertaining isn't it. By the way, we are going to be starting A/B tests run by Boulder Creek Guitars, at their factory, using 2 identical instruments, one with the POWER PINS and one without, 6 string, 12 string, and 4 string Basses, it should be interesting. Can any of you guys suggest tests that we should run?

[Monk of Funk]

Originally Posted by ac2300

Are you making fun of us , it usually is entertaining isn't it. By the way, we are going to be starting A/B tests run by Boulder Creek Guitars, at their factory, using 2 identical instruments, one with the POWER PINS and one without, 6 string, 12 string, and 4 string Basses, it should be interesting. Can any of you guys suggest tests that we should run?

Fixed stereo mic, fixed guitar rack, same strings, preferably robot player, if not, real player playing the same thing the same way.

[Gypsyblue]

Originally Posted by dhalbert

You could do an experiment, swapping between the old and new pins one at a time. If you can record the result, that might help in your comparisons. I too believe this might be due to some mechanical issue.

There's an interactive thing that happens between the player and the guitar that cannot necessarily always be recorded.

I think the player can hear/feel some subtle effect of a change made to her guitar (like different bridge pins) but that often what she's hearing/feeling doesn't get picked up by a recording.

That doesn't mean that what the musician is hearing or feeling as a difference or improvement is not real.

It could be that interactive thing between the musician and her instrument that the player is hearing/feeling.

Recordings are very helpful with pointing out more obvious differences though - like between pickups, speakers, woods, etc.

[Alan Carruth]

ac2300 asked:
"Can any of you guys suggest tests that we should run?"

It's not too difficult to set up a mechanical plucker based on the wire break method, which is the most consistent way to 'pluck' a string. It does take some time to re-set, though. This would allow you to pluck each string in the same place and the same direction with almost exactly the same force every time. Then you can record the sounds for later evaluation.

It would take some time, but getting data for all the notes on the first four or five frets would get around a lot of problems with resonant placements and string partials. You'll need something like four plucks for each note.

Use the same instrument each time, and swap out the pins: it's the only way to control all of the variables. It's darn near impossible to make 'identical' sounding guitars, even when you make them by hand and control for wood properties. Factories just can't take the time. You want to find out what the pins do, not look at the differences between two guitars.

You can use the recorded sounds to analyze attack and decay times, maximum amplitude, and harmonic content. You can also string them together into a short snippet of music for random comparison through headphones. This takes out a lot of the subjectivity.

I'd be happy to elaborate on any of this.

[ohYew812]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

Roger Knox wrote:
"...there's no way to predict if changing pins will make any difference, and even less chance of predicting what that change will be."

Actually, there is, if you assume that it's the different mass that has the effect. Most people are going to be starting out with plastic pins, which, at around 3 grams for a set, are the lightest. Ebony pins are about 5 gm/set, so adding the difference in weight (a one cent coin is about 2 grams) should give pretty much the same result. According to my trusty triple-beam balance, bone pins are about 8.5 gm/set, brass is 26 or so, and 'Power Pins' come in around 31 grams, if you use all the washers.

It's hard to think of other ways pins could alter the sound. I'm not sure I buy the argument about the strings not being 'seated properly'. I have not seen any measurements that show how that could work, but then, I don't have any measurements that demonstrate that it can't. If the ball end is moving as the string tension changes you'd expect it to move up, and become more tightly wedged: there's nothing pulling it back, after all. Eventually it would be wedged so tight it would stop moving, and that would not take more than a few seconds, at most. In theory the saddle should define the vibrating length of the strings, and nothing that goes on behind it should matter. The 'back string' length between the saddle and the pins is too short to reduce the tension change as the string is fretted, or when it vibrates. As long as the ball end isn't moving there's no vibration for the pin to transmit to the bridge, so the hardness of the pin material should not matter. If anybody has some real data on this sort of thing, I'd like to see it.

OTOH, there is one way pins can certainly make a difference in what we perceive: if they look good, or cost a lot, the thing HAS to sound better. If 'everybody knows' that a bridge pin material gives a certain tone, it's really easy to 'hear' that. You could argue that perception is reality, but I don't have to believe it.

That's what guys with plastic pins always say.

[Alan Carruth]

Back to ac2300:

If you really want to A/B guitars live, you should do some tests with the 'special' pins in A, and some with them in B. Cover over the pins so the audience can't see them. You'll need to do twice as many tests to get a large enough sample size to draw conclusions, but it will help wash out the differences between those 'identical' guitars.

It would also help to make some 'standard' type pins that weigh the same as the 'special' ones. Again, use each type of pin in each instrument to wash out the differences.

[David Eastwood]

"A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest"

[Dotneck]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

Actually, there is, if you assume that it's the different mass that has the effect. Most people are going to be starting out with plastic pins, which, at around 3 grams for a set, are the lightest. Ebony pins are about 5 gm/set, so adding the difference in weight (a one cent coin is about 2 grams) should give pretty much the same result.

I don't know that I have enough patience for scientific experiments on each of my guitars.

What kind of bridge pins do you prefer to use on your guitars?