Way more than expected difference in sound from new bridge pins

[BoomChuck]

So I ordered a set of ebony pins from Stew-Mac, mostly for the look.

I just put them on, which was a little eventful: they didn't want to stay put in the holes until string tension was applied. The guitar was made in 2009 so I didn't think I'd need the oversized pins, but now I'm a little concerned that these are a bit loose...

Anyhow, once I finally strung it up and played a first chord, wowza! I mean, it was like my guitar but on turbo! More lows, more highs, more vibration, more everything.

Now, I know that bridge pins shouldn't make that much of a difference in sound...

So I'm wondering whether the previous pins just didn't allow the strings to make proper contact with the bridge and top? They're just cheap plastic pins and, looking at them now, I see that the slot on a lot of them is signficantly widened and chewed up until about the halfway point – did the string ball end maybe just sit there, instead of making it all the way up to the bridgeplate? (Is that even possible?)

[paulisdead]

I haven't been 'here' that long but I believe the appropriate reply is-

And we're off...

[BoomChuck]

Originally Posted by paulisdead

I haven't been 'here' that long but I believe the appropriate reply is-

And we're off...

Mm, sorry, just to be clear: I do not believe that it is the bridge pins, their quality or their material, that are affecting the sound.

[ohYew812]

Originally Posted by BoomChuck

Mm, sorry, just to be clear: I do not believe that it is the bridge pins, their quality or their material, that are affecting the sound.

Curious why you offer that?

I changed from plastic to bone, and with no other changes whatsoever, I had a huge increase in shimmer and brightness

[paulisdead]

Originally Posted by BoomChuck

Mm, sorry, just to be clear: I do not believe that it is the bridge pins, their quality or their material, that are affecting the sound.

Oh, sorry, right.
But I have noticed big changes, too, with all sorts of diameter wooden pins.

[BoomChuck]

Originally Posted by ohYew812

Curious why you offer that?

I think @paulisdead was needling me about starting yet another thread on one of this forum’s debated-to-death topics, whether bridge pins make a meaningful contribution to the sound. Which I may be partially guilty of...

So I was just responding to that by saying that I'm not so much attributing the changes in tone to the new bridge pins or any quality inherent to them, rather to the fact that the old pins may have never permitted the strings to make contact with the bridgeplate and musing about whether that was even possible.

As for the degree to which the bridge pins themselves are responsible for the tone improvement, I won't start theorizing on that...

[dhalbert]

You could do an experiment, swapping between the old and new pins one at a time. If you can record the result, that might help in your comparisons. I too believe this might be due to some mechanical issue.

[Mbroady]

Does not matter what others say. If you hear the difference, that's all that counts.

With that said, like you stated, I would attribute the dramatic change to the way the strings make contact with the bridge plate.

[Rodger Knox]

Changing from plastic to bone or ebony will add a little weight to the bridge, which isn't usually a good thing, except sometimes it is.
The guitar is extremely sensitive to weight on the bridge, so even small changes in mass may make a large difference in tone, or it may not.
It all depends on a myriad of variables that are different for each guitar, so there's no way to predict if changing pins will make any difference, and even less chance of predicting what that change will be.

[RustyZombie]

There is no question that the material of the bridge pins have a tonal affect. It'd be a violation of Newton's laws of motion if they didn't.

But given the manner of how the old pins were chewed up, I agree that at least a majority of the difference is due to the strings being seated properly.

[earri]

Did you also put on new strings, or restring with the ones that were already on the guitar? BTW; what guitar is it?

[BoomChuck]

Ok, here we go:

Ebony: https://instaud.io/private/9e242feb1...fc83713ac5b19e
Plastic: https://instaud.io/private/cf6b77793...a5a7dd207ae54c

Not scientific by any means. I let the guitar sit for about an hour, recorded the "Ebony" clip, then, without changing the strings, changed back to plastic, recorded the "Plastic" clip. The phrases aren't identical but they're the same idea. I recorded into an AKG C414 that was about a foot away, pointed at the lower part of the upper bout of the guitar. Mic placement was consistent enough that it shouldn't play a part.

I have to admit that in the impartial light of the microphone the change isn't quite as drastic but it's still quite noticeable, with ebony pins the guitar sounds way more articulate, has a bit more bass, and is a little louder.

The guitar is a Boucher Dreadnaught from 2009, Adirondack top, Sapele back and sides, satin finish.

The rest of the chain is AKG C414->Apogee Quartet. MP3 conversion through Adobe Media Encoder.

Edit: just realized that the Plastic clip is cut short but the source file is long gone... Hopefully it's enough to get the picture.

[Mark L]

I'm not sure whether bridge pin material always makes a difference in sound/tone, but it surely might in some cases. Also, a better fitting pin will usually make a positive difference.

What I am more sure of, though, is that to make an "experiment" more complete, one should record the instrument, remove the original pins, and then replace the original pins and record it again. Then repeat this for the new set of pins. Actually, it might be good to do the process an additional time for each pin set, keeping the strings the same. Then scramble the 6 recordings into random order and listen to them, seeing if consistent differences appear upon analysis.

Of course, mic placement and recording technique can provide larger differences than bridge pins, surely.

Sound is in the mind! . M.

[Alan Carruth]

Roger Knox wrote:
"...there's no way to predict if changing pins will make any difference, and even less chance of predicting what that change will be."

Actually, there is, if you assume that it's the different mass that has the effect. Most people are going to be starting out with plastic pins, which, at around 3 grams for a set, are the lightest. Ebony pins are about 5 gm/set, so adding the difference in weight (a one cent coin is about 2 grams) should give pretty much the same result. According to my trusty triple-beam balance, bone pins are about 8.5 gm/set, brass is 26 or so, and 'Power Pins' come in around 31 grams, if you use all the washers.

It's hard to think of other ways pins could alter the sound. I'm not sure I buy the argument about the strings not being 'seated properly'. I have not seen any measurements that show how that could work, but then, I don't have any measurements that demonstrate that it can't. If the ball end is moving as the string tension changes you'd expect it to move up, and become more tightly wedged: there's nothing pulling it back, after all. Eventually it would be wedged so tight it would stop moving, and that would not take more than a few seconds, at most. In theory the saddle should define the vibrating length of the strings, and nothing that goes on behind it should matter. The 'back string' length between the saddle and the pins is too short to reduce the tension change as the string is fretted, or when it vibrates. As long as the ball end isn't moving there's no vibration for the pin to transmit to the bridge, so the hardness of the pin material should not matter. If anybody has some real data on this sort of thing, I'd like to see it.

OTOH, there is one way pins can certainly make a difference in what we perceive: if they look good, or cost a lot, the thing HAS to sound better. If 'everybody knows' that a bridge pin material gives a certain tone, it's really easy to 'hear' that. You could argue that perception is reality, but I don't have to believe it.

[GuitarLight]

Your findings with ebony pins and the increase in "everything"...lows, mids and highs...matches my own findings. I have tried ebony pins on every single guitar I have ever owned over decades. Some 30 fine guitars in all. And in every instance, a noticable difference was found....sometimes so much so...that I returned BACK to the stock plastic pins as the wooden ebony pins, in some instances over produced more sound than I wanted for vocals.

Others say they do not find a difference. But not everyones hearing is as acute as it could be. The ebony difference for me, is LARGE, and noticable.