Way more than expected difference in sound from new bridge pins

[Alan Carruth]

These days I seem to gravitate toward bone pins for my 'domestic wood' builds, and ebony on the others. I try to take the weight of the pins into account when I'm making the bridge so that the total mass stays about the same. Since I generally use something like a rosewood for bridges on 'tropical' wood builds, and walnut on domestics, the heavier bone pins on the domestics don't exact much weight penalty.

[Psalad]

Originally Posted by ac2300

Are you making fun of us , it usually is entertaining isn't it. By the way, we are going to be starting A/B tests run by Boulder Creek Guitars, at their factory, using 2 identical instruments, one with the POWER PINS and one without, 6 string, 12 string, and 4 string Basses, it should be interesting. Can any of you guys suggest tests that we should run?

Simple. Use a hard microphone mount that remains constant...



it mounts to the guitar with an arm so microphone doesn't move. Record two passes of a guitar phrase with one set of pins. Change the pins. Record the same passage again twice with the different pins.

Post the files for us to a/b/x test ourselves. I will send you $20 if you do this, don't introduce any "tells" in the test, and people can pick out the two passes with the same pins.

[Hank Linderman]

I noticed a difference between the standard plastic pins on my HD-28 and the bone pins I tried.

With bone, some tonal differences, more sustain mostly. Noticeable change in feel vs how long the notes held on. It was really appealing at first. The bad news was that the sustain was a bit too much for me.

Back to the stock plastic pins for me.

I keep meaning to try them again on a different guitar, but haven't gotten around to it.

Best...H

[Alan Carruth]

It has been pointed out that one of the qualifications of a good player is that they can get the sound they like out of any decent excuse for an instrument. They do this automatically, so unless there's a pretty big difference that they just can't get around it can be hard for the audience to hear anything in an A/B test. OTOH, frequently the players can tell the difference. Thus you need to get feedback both from the audience and the player.

If the player or the audience gets any hint of the difference between the test instruments it can bias the results. That's why the best tests are 'double blind'. Somebody prepares the instruments, so that they're as much 'alike' as possible, except for the thing being tested, which is carefully hidden. That person labels them 'A' and 'B', and leaves the room. Somebody else, who has not had any communication with the person who set the instruments up, then takes them and hands them to the player. That person cannot give the player any hint as to which is which, since they don't know. Thus the player and the audience go in with no preconceptions. After the test is over the preparer reveals which instrument had what setup, and the results can be tallied.

We already know that bridge pin mass can make a difference. Since you're looking for some effect that is special to your particular design, you'll need to control for pin mass to remove that variable.

The 'hard' mic seems like a good idea.

[DanPanther]

Originally Posted by BoomChuck

Mm, sorry, just to be clear: I do not believe that it is the bridge pins, their quality or their material, that are affecting the sound.

I tend to agree, unless you go from plastic to solid brass, then you MIGHT see a slight difference. Otherwise you are defeating the purpose of the saddle and the nut. Items above those, and below those, should have limited effects on the sound. Exceptions are wood type, or if a component is broken or not functioning as designed. The vibration of the strings between the nut and the saddle are designed to move the soundboard. IF every component is working properly other than items mentioned I personally do not feel pins would matter. At least not significantly.

Dan

[Ed-in-Ohio]

I too have experienced no, subtle, and substantial tonal changes when going from one type of bridge pin to another.

My current theory is that the most important factor in determining how bridge pins affect tone is the fit, and not the material they are made from.

I believe that proper fit and taper can maximize tone.

[Alan Carruth]

Ed-in-Ohio wrote:
"I too have experienced no, subtle, and substantial tonal changes when going from one type of bridge pin to another."

Right. Keep in mind that a guitar is a very complicated vibrating system, and a lot depends on exactly how the various resonances interact with each other. Generally speaking they won't interact strongly ('couple') unless they're very close in pitch. Sometimes it doesn't take a large change in mass to alter the pitch of one or more resonant modes of the top enough to drastically change the coupling of the guitar, and thus the tone. I've measured, and observed, changes in tone from the addition or subtraction of as little as two grams of material in some cases: that's the difference in weight between plastic and ebony pins. I once cured a very bad 'wolf' note on a Classical guitar by adding no more than three grams of mass to the top at the bridge. In that case, of course, it was not with pins, but the principle is the same.

Ed again:
"I believe that proper fit and taper can maximize tone."

I'm skeptical of that myself. I've seen some pretty terrific sounding guitars that had assorted pins, some of which were falling out. I know that mass matters because, as I say, I've measured it. I'd like to see some objective data on fit and taper.

[Ed-in-Ohio]

Alan, thanks so much for the thoughtful and informative reply.

I am the first to admit that my theory is based solely on unscientific, anecdotal observations. The three or four most substantial positive changes I have experienced when changing bridge pins all coincided with those pins fitting the guitar much better than the pins they replaced.

[patrickgm60]

Originally Posted by BoomChuck

Ok, here we go:

Ebony: https://instaud.io/private/9e242feb1...fc83713ac5b19e
Plastic: https://instaud.io/private/cf6b77793...a5a7dd207ae54c

Not scientific by any means. I let the guitar sit for about an hour, recorded the "Ebony" clip, then, without changing the strings, changed back to plastic, recorded the "Plastic" clip. The phrases aren't identical but they're the same idea. I recorded into an AKG C414 that was about a foot away, pointed at the lower part of the upper bout of the guitar. Mic placement was consistent enough that it shouldn't play a part.

I have to admit that in the impartial light of the microphone the change isn't quite as drastic but it's still quite noticeable, with ebony pins the guitar sounds way more articulate, has a bit more bass, and is a little louder.

The guitar is a Boucher Dreadnaught from 2009, Adirondack top, Sapele back and sides, satin finish.

The rest of the chain is AKG C414->Apogee Quartet. MP3 conversion through Adobe Media Encoder.

Edit: just realized that the Plastic clip is cut short but the source file is long gone... Hopefully it's enough to get the picture.

I didn't detect an appreciable difference, on first listen, FWIW.

A "better" method of A/B comparison may be alternating the two bridge pins, among the strings. For example, ebony on the E, D, and B strings, and plastic on the others. Or, perhaps, a 12-string guitar, with one "set" of strings, each, with the two pin types.

[Lacks Focus]

My personal experience is that a change from the original plastic pins in my M-38 to a set of bone pins resulted in no change large enough that it couldn't have been accounted for in the new strings that went on at the same time.

Note that I'm not saying I heard no difference - rather, I heard no difference that I could confidently ascribe to the pins. Or put another way, no difference distinct enough to avoid being completely masked by the change that new strings made.

[Psalad]

Originally Posted by patrickgm60

I didn't detect an appreciable difference, on first listen, FWIW.

A "better" method of A/B comparison may be alternating the two bridge pins, among the strings. For example, ebony on the E, D, and B strings, and plastic on the others. Or, perhaps, a 12-string guitar, with one "set" of strings, each, with the two pin types.

Me either.. as expected.

Try the free app "audio exam" on your mac if you have one. Blind tester. Of course in this case once you understand the nuances in the playing you might convince yourself you notice audible differences, so it's not very useful.

[ac2300]

Originally Posted by Psalad

Simple. Use a hard microphone mount that remains constant...



it mounts to the guitar with an arm so microphone doesn't move. Record two passes of a guitar phrase with one set of pins. Change the pins. Record the same passage again twice with the different pins.

Post the files for us to a/b/x test ourselves. I will send you $20 if you do this, don't introduce any "tells" in the test, and people can pick out the two passes with the same pins.

Thats a great setup to try, thanks! $20, thats a great offer too

[muscmp]

if you didn't seat the originals properly, that could have been a problem. you'll never know. just....

play music!