Setting intonation with non-strobo tuner

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by Goodallboy

I have a skilled luthier make any changes to my guitar nut or saddle and unless you are skilled, my advice would be to leave both alone.

I adjust the intonation on my electric guitars on a regular basis, with a strobe tuner.

The article listed was more opinion than fact so you can choose to believe it or not. The subject has been roundly debated for years.

If I can hear the notes strings out of tune after using a cheap tuner, then I need a more accurate one. If you can't, I guess that's a "lucky" break for you. It will never be more cut and dried than that.

If you hear that good, why do you need a tuner at all? I understand you may need a reference to start from, but tuning the guitar doesn't require a tuner, if you're any good at distinguishing pitch.

I'm not sure, but I think Mr. Klepper may have agreed with me!

[MC5C]

My ears are actually pretty crap, but I can hear two notes that are supposed to be identical - that being the 12th fretted note and the octave harmonic. Tuning the guitar is a bit harder to find octaves, the harmonics at the 5th and 7th fret are out of tune, the fretted note at the fifth fret is a bit out of tune, so using a tuner just makes it easy, and I'm all for easy. Plus it makes it easy to be at A-440 pitch, which I can't do without a reference of some sort. I actually find that if I tune without a tuner, I tend to sweeten some notes so I have to go around playing octaves anyway, to fix that. If you tune by ear there is a tremendous tendency to tune to just temperament, it sounds better. Tuner is easier, but all I had for many years (the olde days before clip on tuners were invented, oh the shame of it) was a tuning fork. I used to hit it on my head and stick the ball in my ear so I could hear it, or put it on the bridge of the guitar.

Here is a life hack I used for many years. Dial tone on a normal telephone is a two tone signal at 350 Hz and 440Hz.If you listen to a dial tone you can get the 440 pitch out of it, and tune your guitar to that.

[Mike McLenison]

My Martin HD-35 has perfect intonation according to my Snark (and my ears). I use Pyramid 13's and tune down a whole step.

[flaggerphil]

I'm just glad my hearing is such that I don't need more than a Snark to get tuning where I want it. The stuff you guys are talking about would drive me insane.

[Goodallboy]

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

If you hear that good, why do you need a tuner at all? I understand you may need a reference to start from, but tuning the guitar doesn't require a tuner, if you're any good at distinguishing pitch.

I'm not sure, but I think Mr. Klepper may have agreed with me!

I've often wondered that myself.

My ear can detect any string that is not in tune with the other strings so I need a reference point with which to start.

Note I wasn't claiming to have perfect pitch, just extremely attuned hearing for strings that aren't in tune with the others.

Your statement about not needing a tuner is completely off base no matter who agrees with you. Most people don't have perfect pitch and can't detect 440 hz without a tuner. Personally, I want to be at 440 so a tuner is required for me.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Horus

Greetings,

I have a very basic tuner (Snark SN-1) and am wondering if it can be used to set intonation or I need to buy a strobo tuner (Peterson, etc.). Also, there is at least one strobo tuner for Android, but I tested it with a tuning fork and found to be not very precise.

Thanks

Hi Horus

For setting intonation more accuracy is better.

I have several tuners which are accurate to .1 cent (1/1000 of a half step), and it's much easier to use them with electric guitars than acoustic, but I have successfully adjusted intonation on both with those tuners.

I'd actually set it 'pretty close' with one which is +-1 cent (1/100 half step), and when I put it on the peterson it needed a lot of additional adjustment to dial it in.

I agree with Howard that some tuning machines may not be able to resolve it. However, the Gotoh 510 tuners (both versions) sure will if the nut slot is properly adjusted for width.

That said, I still want my guitars calibrated as close to perfectly in tune as possible, so my influences on the strings are not magnified.

I'll guarantee you if the focus on one of my high end lenses for my cameras was off by even a fraction of a percent, it would need to be adjusted/corrected. This micro adjustment of lenses is now a built in feature on high end DSLR cameras so the user or a tech can dial the focus in precisely.

I see parallels between a string being properly intonated, and a camera lenses' focus being properly adjusted for precise focus.

[blowery]

Get a Sonic Research Turbo Tuner ST-300

Accuracy .02 CENTS!
Strobe tuner
Super Quick
Can see it in fine it sunlight


https://www.turbo-tuner.com

My snark gets me in the ballpark, no way I'd use for intonation.

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by Goodallboy

I've often wondered that myself.

My ear can detect any string that is not in tune with the other strings so I need a reference point with which to start.

Note I wasn't claiming to have perfect pitch, just extremely attuned hearing for strings that aren't in tune with the others.

Your statement about not needing a tuner is completely off base no matter who agrees with you. Most people don't have perfect pitch and can't detect 440 hz without a tuner. Personally, I want to be at 440 so a tuner is required for me.

Sorry, I think you misunderstood. The first two sentences quoted above is exactly what I meant in the post to which you are responding. I'm making a pretty fine point to distinguish the difference between a tuner (which isn't necessary) and a reference tone(which is necessary, unless you have perfect pitch).

The statement about Howard agreeing with me referred to one of my previous posts.

[robj144]

Originally Posted by MC5C

I'm almost afraid to confess that I set intonation with my ears, simple harmonic and fretted note at 12th fret. If it's close enough that I can't tell the difference, then I call it good to go. The guitar is always out of tune anyway, what with equal temperament and all, so my theory is that if I can't tell the difference there is no difference. I sometimes check with fancy tuners, but they always say it's spot on, so I mostly don't bother.

How are you setting the intonation though? Are you adjusting the saddle?

[sweiss]

Originally Posted by robj144

How are you setting the intonation though? Are you adjusting the saddle?

That's what I was wondering. Unless you have one of those horrid old Gibson adjustable bridges, how much can you really do with a fixed saddle and nut?

Seems like a lot of tail chasing for perfection that really isn't obtainable anyway.

[dagobert]

Originally Posted by flaggerphil

I'm just glad my hearing is such that I don't need more than a Snark to get tuning where I want it. The stuff you guys are talking about would drive me insane.

Right there with you.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by sweiss

That's what I was wondering. Unless you have one of those horrid old Gibson adjustable bridges, how much can you really do with a fixed saddle and nut?

Seems like a lot of tail chasing for perfection that really isn't obtainable anyway.

Hi sweiss

Little adjustments result in substantial changes when it comes to intonation. Depending on the thickness of a saddle, you can adjust intonation a lot by moving the point at which the string crosses the top of the saddle.

The saddle on my main guitar is quite thick, and as you can see in the photo, there is the ability to shift the crossing point front to back by angling the top crossing point. On my Olson, the 1st and 3rd strings sit on the front edge of the saddle, and the 2nd near the back of the saddle and the 6th as far back as it can go. This is where it needed to be to be properly intonated. I also have it intonated with the 6th string tuned to D since I play in Dropped D tuning a lot.



My bass string was out by nearly 2 cents before adjustment, and by angling it to the back of the saddle my luthier improved the intonation by at least 1.75 cents. He couldn't do more without filling the saddle slot and cutting a new channel to shift the bass end backwards (which was done already when the guitar was about 18 years old). It's close enough to be very tolerable now (bass strings are a delicate balance when it comes to not applying too much force when fingering so I tune it a hair flat anyway when drop tuning).

Adjusting the string's crossing point forward or backwards on the saddles in my guitar moves them equivalent amounts of distances as when I've mechanically adjusted saddles on my Strat and Tele when intonating strings.

[Long Jon]

Originally Posted by sweiss

That's what I was wondering. Unless you have one of those horrid old Gibson adjustable bridges, how much can you really do with a fixed saddle and nut?

Seems like a lot of tail chasing for perfection that really isn't obtainable anyway.

I've got an old Harmony mandolin with a floating bridge that needs some TLC . There are no marks visible indicating where the bridge should go.

So I guess it'll be trial, error and Snarking to try and get that right,,, if I ever get around to it.

[MC5C]

Originally Posted by robj144

How are you setting the intonation though? Are you adjusting the saddle?

If you look at the list of guitars I have down below (I had to look too, to check) all but one has a moveable bridge. Only the Landola Jumbo has a fixed bridge. Well, the National lap steel has a fixed bridge too, but no frets . The two resonator guitars you set the intonation by moving the spider around a bit on the cone. All the others are arch-tops with moveable bridges or electrics with adjustable saddles or bridges. I actually went so far as to mill a custom bridge for the Melody Maker from billet aluminium to correct it's intonation, since it has a barely adjustable bridge (and it had the wrong one, long story). Since I started making guitars, I have been also making the bridges for them, so I have been looking at the need for, the causes for compensation, hence setting intonation. On my most recent archtop I actually made a solid (not height adjustable) cello type bridge. PITA dialing in the action height, let me tell you!

[MC5C]

Originally Posted by Long Jon

I've got an old Harmony mandolin with a floating bridge that needs some TLC . There are no marks visible indicating where the bridge should go.

So I guess it'll be trial, error and Snarking to try and get that right,,, if I ever get around to it.

If you measure the distance from the nut front edge to the center of the 12th fret you'll probably come up with just under 7" ("standard" mandolin scale is 13.86" so half that is 6.93, or near as shooting 6 31/32"). If you add 3/32" to that for the treble string course and 5/32" for the bass string course and set the break-point of your bridge to that dimension from the center of the 12th fret, you will be really close to correct intonation. Might be 1/16" forward or back from that for perfection, but it's a quick way to get started. Varies with string gauge, core diameter for the wound strings, and action height.

edit: if you are setting up an archtop instrument with a floating bridge for the first time, just string it up with a treble string and a bass string (E and E on a guitar, G and E on a mandolin) and tune those strings to pitch. If it's already strung with all the strings, just slack off all the middle strings so the bridge moves easily. Move the bridge towards the neck if the fretted note is flat to the harmonic, and move it away from the neck if the fretted note is sharp to the harmonic. Angle the bridge so that both the treble string and the bass string are intonated correctly, then retune to pitch and double check. The idea of using the harmonic vs fretted tone takes away the need to retune to perfect pitch every time you move the bridge a fraction of an inch, and rechecking just fine-tunes things. Adding the other strings changes things a tad, but usually not enough to have to move the bridge again, and it can be near impossible to move a bridge accurately once the strings are all at full tension. If you want, you can then adjust the middle strings by filing the top of the saddle to move the strings forward or back (like the picture of the adjusted guitar saddle above). If you play in dropped D tuning, or other different tunings, you might need to further adjust that string. Dropping the pitch of a string by a full note usually needs added compensation, in my experience, although if you also increase the string gauge (particularly the core wire diameter) then maybe not.