Bridge pin fit out the window.

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by TBman

A suggestion to glue the bridge pins in place?

Glue? Am I reading this correctly?

You are using the glue as a layer inside the hole to make the hole a tad smaller. You leave it to dry before reinserting the pin.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by stringjunky

You are using the glue as a layer inside the hole to make the hole a tad smaller. You leave it to dry before reinserting the pin.

Duh, lol. Not enough coffee this am

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by seannx

I’m not sure why it’s a problem if the pins fall out when the guitar is turned face down. Maybe that saves time searching for them if that happens. When I change strings the guitar always stays face up.

For many people it may not be ‘a problem’. That’s fine, their guitar, their option.

For me, it’s a problem because it suggests that, in the case of a tapered pin in a straight-drilled hole (which is the scenario my post was addressing), the pin is ‘too small’, and the tendency to ‘wobble’ in the hole - i.e. to be pushed aside by the ball-end - which already exists, is exaggerated further. When the pin is pushed aside by the ball-end, there’s a danger that the ball-end will ‘creep’ into the hole and, over time, work its way up the hole, damaging the bridge-plate and, eventually necessitating an expensive repair.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

[Stevien]

[QUOTE=JayBee1404;6187806]

"The Collings I owned during 2018 did have properly tapered and slotted pin-holes. But every Martin I’ve owned (five in total) came with tapered pins which stuck up by 1/8” or so, in straight-drilled holes."

JayBee, I'm not sure where you're finding your Martins, (Chinese Knock-offs maybe), but Martin has been drilling their pin holes at a 5 degree taper for decades. Most pin sets that you buy have a declaration of weather they match the Martin taper or not. I believe the actual problem you're seeing, is that many people change pins on their Martins (to get rid of the plastic stock pins) and replacing them with pins of a different (sharper) taper. This will result in the appearance of non-tapered pin holes.
Steve

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Edgar Poe

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SNUG FIT, AND PROPER TAPER MATCH. THAT AT ONE TIME WAS A VITAL REQUIREMENT.
I believe even Taylor told the guy;" don't sweat it. That's normal for a guitar".

You need heavy gauge strings.....
You need the proper width nut.....
The bridge pins need to be PERFECTLY matched to the taper, and snugness of the pin hole....
Laminated guitars are junk....
Neck resets have nothing to do with string tension....
Bone bridge pins are better than Plastic....
On and on and on.
Ed

and on and on some more...

Happens frequently in many areas, debate being particularly fierce about topics where there is more room for "experts" in subjectivity than in objectivity.

For a time while I was assembling gear for an audiophile music system I read over the debates about $13,000 speaker cables, applying green markers for the edge of CDs (even tried that one), Blue Meanies ( http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina47.htm ) etc. Often the claims were fun reads, but not much else.

[JayBee1404]

[QUOTE=Stevien;6188097]

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

"The Collings I owned during 2018 did have properly tapered and slotted pin-holes. But every Martin I’ve owned (five in total) came with tapered pins which stuck up by 1/8” or so, in straight-drilled holes."

JayBee, I'm not sure where you're finding your Martins, (Chinese Knock-offs maybe), but Martin has been drilling their pin holes at a 5 degree taper for decades. Most pin sets that you buy have a declaration of weather they match the Martin taper or not. I believe the actual problem you're seeing, is that many people change pins on their Martins (to get rid of the plastic stock pins) and replacing them with pins of a different (sharper) taper. This will result in the appearance of non-tapered pin holes.
Steve

Sorry, that’s not correct Stevien.

Martin stopped tapering their pin-holes at least thirty years ago, some time in the early 1980’s I believe. Until then, they tapered the holes, and split the slot 50% in the hole and 50% in the pin.

I bought my first Martin around 2002 - brand new, from one of the UK’s major dealers. Since then I’ve bought a second brand new Martin from the same dealer, and three brand new Martins from one of the Forum Sponsors over there in the US. All five had straight-drilled pin holes.

We’re not allowed, under forum rules, to refer to other forums, so I can’t give a link but there is plenty of information out there to confirm this is the case.

The exception is the Authentic series introduced , I think, around 2012 - e.g. the A-‘37 and A-‘41. Those models have tapered, slotted holes and solid pins.

And I’d appreciate it if you didn’t try to insult me by suggesting my guitars aren’t genuine Martins. There’s no reason for rudeness. I haven’t insulted anyone, I’ve gone to some length to try to be helpful, and I don’t appreciate others insulting me.

[Edgar Poe]

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

Well, I guess that’s me you’re criticising there, Edgar. If you’re going to ‘quote’ me, please have the good grace to quote me accurately and in full, so that there can be no misunderstandings about what I actually said. For the sake of accuracy, here are my actual words...

My apologies for misunderstanding your intended meaning.

However just because the pins stay in the hole, in no way does that indicate that the pin has a proper fit. It only means the pin has made contact at it's widest point. By adding the glue you may be masking a more serious problem and may not even be aware of it.

The example may be an exaggeration, but it is a possibility.

Ed

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by Edgar Poe

My apologies for misunderstanding your intended meaning.

However just because the pins stay in the hole, in no way does that indicate that the pin has a proper fit. It only means the pin has made contact at it's widest point. By adding the glue you may be masking a more serious problem and may not even be aware of it.

Ed

Ed, I didn’t say that you should put glue in the holes where the pin stays in the hole - I made it perfectly clear that I was talking about a situation where the pin falls out if the guitar is inverted....here it is, copied from my post...

”If they remain in place, the luthier is correct, they are ‘normal’ for tapered pins in straight holes. If they fall out, all it needs is a swabbing around the top-half of the hole with wood-glue or preferably CA, allow to dry overnight, and test again in the morning. If the pins still fall out, repeat the glue/dry/test thing until they stay in place.

Hope that helps...

[Edgar Poe]

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

Ed, I didn’t say that you should put glue in the holes where the pin stays in the hole - I made it perfectly clear that I was talking about a situation where the pin falls out if the guitar is inverted....here it is, copied from my post...

”If they remain in place, the luthier is correct, they are ‘normal’ for tapered pins in straight holes. If they fall out, all it needs is a swabbing around the top-half of the hole with wood-glue or preferably CA, allow to dry overnight, and test again in the morning. If the pins still fall out, repeat the glue/dry/test thing until they stay in place.

Hope that helps...

I posted the drawing to show what I meant.
The entire support system under the bridge could be missing, and the glue would hold the pin in place. But in actuality the only portion of the pin in contact COULD be a very small portion.
To clarify, in the drawing I am NOT showing the pin glued in place, ONLY that the area making contact is a very small one.
Ed

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by Edgar Poe

I posted the drawing to show what I meant.
The entire support system under the bridge could be missing, and the glue would hold the pin in place. But in actuality the only portion of the pin in contact COULD be a very small portion.
To clarify, in the drawing I am NOT showing the pin glued in place, ONLY that the area making contact is a very small one.
Ed

Have you read and understood any of my other posts Ed - the ones talking about taper-reaming pin-holes to match the taper of the pin, and what a superior result it gives in terms of fit?

A tapered pin in a straight-drilled hole can only ever make contact at one point, and I’ve been explaining how that leaves it likely to ‘wobble’ and allow the ball-end to push the pin aside, and the ball-end to ‘creep’ into the hole and cause bridge-plate damage.

That’s why I’ve recommended taper-reaming the hole to match the taper of the pin, which will allow the pin to make a more ‘solid’ contact with the hole, and reduce the tendency of the pin to be pushed aside by the ball-end.

Some informative reading here... https://www.bryankimsey.com/bridges/slotted.htm

[dwasifar]

I tested Edgar's question with a sample bridge pin from each of my guitars, and I can confirm that they all do indeed fit out the window. There's plenty of clearance.

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

But personally, I’d rather they fitted the pins properly, even if that meant putting an extra 50 bucks on the MRSP.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

Originally Posted by musicman1951

I totally agree (although I'm pretty sure they're not paying $50 for 10 minutes work).

I’m pretty sure they’re not paying $50 for 10 minutes work too. But once you take the rate they are paying their workers, add overhead absorption, and add profit margin, you might be surprised how much closer to that figure you’d get!

But what I was really saying was that for me, and on a guitar priced in thousands of dollars, it would be worth an extra fifty to have it with a properly-finished bridge with properly-fitted pins right from the get-go, rather than having to complete the job myself.

And that’s my final word here, I’m gone...

[Nctom]

I have read this whole thread and agree with JayBee. Either taper and fit each pin to the bridge or live with the factory pin (mis)fit, it's that simple. Of course it is simpler to leave everything as it comes then complain that your bridge got chewed up somehow and needs a $$$ repair or that "they don't make guitars like they used to".

It is much more satisfying to learn how to fit pins and slot bridges or pay someone else to do it than all the moaning and groaning.

[Edgar Poe]

Jaybee,

I never said, a tapered pin in a straight hole. My drawing clearly shows damage below the surface.

All I am saying is this.

Even if you taper fit the pins, and at some point you feel the pins are becoming loose, by applying glue to the pin hole, and allowing it to dry ( No pin is glued in the hole, I GET IT ), When you install that pin back into the bridge, ( the entire support for the bridge as shown in my drawing, could be GONE ) and in your glue method the pin would STILL be snug, but ONLY at the very top of the hole ( as indicated by the green arrows. )

I also advocate for tapered Bridge pin holes.

Ed

[Edgar Poe]

Originally Posted by dwasifar

I tested Edgar's question with a sample bridge pin from each of my guitars, and I can confirm that they all do indeed fit out the window. There's plenty of clearance.

\
I'm not clear on what you mean. Did you test with a guitar with damage as shown in my drawing ?
Fit out the window ?
plenty of clearance ? Where.

Ed