Bridge pin fit out the window.

[Edgar Poe]

For years now I have heard how important certain traditional norms are for the proper set up and function of a guitar. I have also advocated that some of the so called traditions are based on, who knows what. For example, nut width, I find that 75% of most intermediate players are really not that familiar with varying nut widths. I for one did not even realize they varied, when I started playing until I read about it. I never had any problem going from one nut width to another. I think some are self inflicted problems. Maybe an excuse for not practicing enough.

NOW the other day I read a thread about a guy that says his bridge pins are not a proper fit for his guitar. That they are loose.
I have read countless theories about material, the angle of the taper, the tightness of the fit, etc. That all of these variables MUST be met to insure a properly set up guitar.
However the advice I read in that thread amazed my. Now all of a sudden it boils down to like one post said;"as long as the pins don't fall out when you turn the guitar upside down'.

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SNUG FIT, AND PROPER TAPER MATCH. THAT AT ONE TIME WAS A VITAL REQUIREMENT.
I believe even Taylor told the guy;" don't sweat it. That's normal for a guitar".

You need heavy gauge strings.....
You need the proper width nut.....
The bridge pins need to be PERFECTLY matched to the taper, and snugness of the pin hole....
Laminated guitars are junk....
Neck resets have nothing to do with string tension....
Bone bridge pins are better than Plastic....

On and on and on.

Ed

[vindibona1]

I think you're right. People tend to sneer at suggestions taking care of and being particular with small nuances that go into the complete guitar. Every adjustment, substitution or modification is cumulative and interdependent on everything else on a guitar. As an example (not related to the main topic) is neck relief. On a well adjusted and refined guitar you can minimize neck relief to almost nothing, have no string buzz anywhere, but absolutely kill the mojo and projection of the sound if you just take it every so infinitesimally too far. The difference between a neck relief of .007" and .010" (.25mm v .18mm) can be night and day difference in the sound. And there are obvious difference in sound between TUSQ, Micarta and bone saddles, and even nuanced differences between bleached and unbleached bone...

...Adding to that, how could one expect to make any reasonable judgement of the differences of bridge pin materials if they weren't fit properly? I suspect many nay-sayers on the bridge pin effect probably never examined bridge pin fit as a contributing element.

Its all interconnected.

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by Edgar Poe

NOW the other day I read a thread about a guy that says his bridge pins are not a proper fit for his guitar. That they are loose.
I have read countless theories about material, the angle of the taper, the tightness of the fit, etc. That all of these variables MUST be met to insure a properly set up guitar.
However the advice I read in that thread amazed my. Now all of a sudden it boils down to like one post said;"as long as the pins don't fall out when you turn the guitar upside down'.

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SNUG FIT, AND PROPER TAPER MATCH. THAT AT ONE TIME WAS A VITAL REQUIREMENT.

Well, I guess that’s me you’re criticising there, Edgar. If you’re going to ‘quote’ me, please have the good grace to quote me accurately and in full, so that there can be no misunderstandings about what I actually said. For the sake of accuracy, here are my actual words...

”You don’t say which guitar we’re talking about here, but your pins are almost certainly free to ‘wobble’ because the hole is straight-drilled whereas the pins are tapered - Martin guitars are all made this way, except for the ‘Authentic’ series.

If you put the pins in the holes without strings, and turn the guitar face-downwards, do the pins fall out, or do they remain in place? If they remain in place, the luthier is correct, they are ‘normal’ for tapered pins in straight holes. If they fall out, all it needs is a swabbing around the top-half of the hole with wood-glue or preferably CA, allow to dry overnight, and test again in the morning. If the pins still fall out, repeat the glue/dry/test thing until they stay in place. Then you’re golden.

What I was explaining there was that, if you have a straight-drilled pin-hole and a tapered pin, the pin is bound to ‘wobble’ because, even if the top of the shaft matches the hole diameter, the bottom of the shaft will be smaller, so it is free to move - hence the ‘wobble’. This is how Martin (and probably Taylor and other large-scale builders) have been making their guitars for many years - all in the interest of cost-control - and it is ‘normal’ for those pins to be able to ‘wobble’ to a lesser or greater degree, it doesn’t indicate a ‘problem’ with the individual guitar, it’s the way they’re built.

Many, perhaps most, owners are either unaware of this or, if they are aware, they don’t worry about it - most owners aren’t geeky about guitar-details the way we AGF-ers are.

In the section about pins falling out, i was advising the OP how to make a too-small tapered pin stay in place in the non-tapered, straight-drilled pin-hole when the guitar is turned upside-down - nothing more, nothing less.

Nowhere did I say that pins don’t need to be properly fitted - in fact, I have taper-reamed and slotted the pin-holes and installed properly-fitting solid, non-slotted pins in my own Martins. This is the advice I would always give if I was asked a question such as, “What is the best way to ensure well-fitting pins and protect my bridge-plate from being damaged by the strings’ ball-ends”. But that question wasn’t asked by the OP, and I saw no virtue in answering a question he hadn’t asked. I simply explained how he could prevent a too-small tapered pin from falling out of a non-tapered straight-drilled hole - that is not the same as your claim that I said, ”As long as the pins don't fall out when you turn the guitar upside down”.

[dwasifar]

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

Well, I guess that’s me you’re criticising there, Edgar. If you’re going to ‘quote’ me, please have the good grace to quote me accurately and in full, so that there can be no misunderstandings about what I actually said. For the sake of accuracy, here are my actual words...

TBH, Jay, I came away from that post thinking you said the same thing Edgar thought you said. I went back to that thread, re-read your post more carefully, and I see your point now, but to be fair, I can see how he got the wrong impression. No offense intended.

[mercy]

Its obvious to me that pins need to fit its hole which requires either a slotted pin or a slotted bridge. Otherwise a part of the guitar is missing. A small part yes but everything makes a difference. You cant hear it? Well some people hear differently than others. The fact that it makes a difference to some people means to me that they are able to hear it. If you cant then it doesnt matter to you, it makes no difference. Go ahead and let you pins be loose.

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by mercy

Its obvious to me that pins need to fit its hole which requires either a slotted pin or a slotted bridge. Otherwise a part of the guitar is missing.

What is needed even more is that the hole is taper-reamed to match the taper of the pin. Without a tapered hole and matching pin taper, the pin will always be able to ‘wobble’.

Judging by the number of times I’ve been told “No way!” when I’ve suggested to Martin-owners that they should taper-ream their straight-drilled pin-holes to match the pins, I reckon there are a very great many owners who are perfectly happy with their guitar’s deficiency, or are blissfully unaware of it.

The second job I do on every new Martin that I come to own is taper-ream and slot the pin-holes, and install solid, un-slotted ebony or Antique Acoustics pins. The first job is to install a strap button in the treble side of the neck-heel.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

[phavriluk]

Got your priorities right, JayBee1404! I think a strap pin, and associated strap, do more for satisfying performance than any single other thing/act available to the player. An what's the cost? In the UK, ten pounds Sterling is my guess.

And I taper-ream the bridge pin holes as a matter of course on my shabby attempts at guitar building. Makes the pins fit nice. And the right thing to do.

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by phavriluk

Got your priorities right, JayBee1404! I think a strap pin, and associated strap, do more for satisfying performance than any single other thing/act available to the player. An what's the cost? In the UK, ten pounds Sterling is my guess.

And I taper-ream the bridge pin holes as a matter of course on my shabby attempts at guitar building. Makes the pins fit nice. And the right thing to do.

Thank you, much appreciated!

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

What is needed even more is that the hole is taper-reamed to match the taper of the pin. Without a tapered hole and matching pin taper, the pin will always be able to ‘wobble’.

Judging by the number of times I’ve been told “No way!” when I’ve suggested to Martin-owners that they should taper-ream their straight-drilled pin-holes to match the pins, I reckon there are a very great many owners who are perfectly happy with their guitar’s deficiency, or are blissfully unaware of it.

The second job I do on every new Martin that I come to own is taper-ream and slot the pin-holes, and install solid, un-slotted ebony or Antique Acoustics pins. The first job is to install a strap button in the treble side of the neck-heel.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

Great explanations. I learned a few things that I didn't even know. But it would seem to me that if in fact you did have tapered holes you would have to be doubly conscious of the taper and diameter of both the hole and the pin. My question to you would be; does the tapered holes with matched pins create any audible difference? I ask this because the pins in my latest acquisition, a 1995 Taylor 910 have pins that are rather on the loose side and some of the strings (not all) seem to have cut slots for themselves. And yet, I still hear difference when I switch to different pin sets. Would there be a more radical difference yet?

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

Great explanations. I learned a few things that I didn't even know. But it would seem to me that if in fact you did have tapered holes you would have to be doubly conscious of the taper and diameter of both the hole and the pin. My question to you would be; does the tapered holes with matched pins create any audible difference? I ask this because the pins in my latest acquisition, a 1995 Taylor 910 have pins that are rather on the loose side and some of the strings (not all) seem to have cut slots for themselves. And yet, I still hear difference when I switch to different pin sets. Would there be a more radical difference yet?

Yes, the pins in a modern Martin (i.e. built since, I believe, the mid-‘80s) have a 5-deg taper. I use good-quality, solid (unslotted) 5-deg taper pins (Stew-Mac, Bob Colosi, Antique Acoustic), a Stew-Mac 5-deg tapered reamer, a home-made slotting saw (http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luth...geslotsaw.html), and needle-files to clean up the slots. I can’t speak for any other guitar brand, as Martin has been the only brand with pin-bridges on my radar for the past twenty years.

Of course, it’s important to have the pins to hand when reaming the pin-holes, because you’re actually fitting the hole to the pin. Once they’re all reamed and fitted accurately down to the collar, it’s important to always use the same pin in each hole - even high quality pins can vary in diameter by a thou or so, and ‘a thou or so’ can make all the difference between a pin sitting perfectly, or standing high, or being too loose.

And the reaming is unlikely to extend down the entire depth of the hole, otherwise you’d need significantly over-sized pins. It probably affects only the top half or so of the hole, but the improvement in fit of the pins is significant, and the tendency of the pin to ‘wobble’ is greatly reduced.

With regard to sonic changes, I’m afraid you’re asking the wrong guy! I’ve never changed pins, or reamed and slotted pin-holes, with any expectation of a sonic change, and I’ve never detected a significant sonic change no matter what pins I use. Not saying it doesn’t happen, just that I guess my old ears aren’t that sensitive, and I’m more into playing than listening for nuances of tone that may or may not exist!

My only reasons for reaming, slotting, and changing to solid pins are...

1) Protection of the bridge plate, by removing the ‘wobble’ of the pin, providing a slot for the string to sit in enabling the ball-end to lock under the bridge-plate more securely, and thus preventing the ball-end from creeping into the pin-hole.

2) Cosmetics - I use pins that I think look good - ebony, Antique Acoustics galalith, buffalo horn.

Hope that all makes sense?

And...the usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV, I’m not a luthier - just an enthusiastic amateur, etc.

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

Well, I guess that’s me you’re criticising there, Edgar. If you’re going to ‘quote’ me, please have the good grace to quote me accurately and in full, so that there can be no misunderstandings about what I actually said. For the sake of accuracy, here are my actual words...

”You don’t say which guitar we’re talking about here, but your pins are almost certainly free to ‘wobble’ because the hole is straight-drilled whereas the pins are tapered - Martin guitars are all made this way, except for the ‘Authentic’ series.

If you put the pins in the holes without strings, and turn the guitar face-downwards, do the pins fall out, or do they remain in place? If they remain in place, the luthier is correct, they are ‘normal’ for tapered pins in straight holes. If they fall out, all it needs is a swabbing around the top-half of the hole with wood-glue or preferably CA, allow to dry overnight, and test again in the morning. If the pins still fall out, repeat the glue/dry/test thing until they stay in place. Then you’re golden.

What I was explaining there was that, if you have a straight-drilled pin-hole and a tapered pin, the pin is bound to ‘wobble’ because, even if the top of the shaft matches the hole diameter, the bottom of the shaft will be smaller, so it is free to move - hence the ‘wobble’. This is how Martin (and probably Taylor and other large-scale builders) have been making their guitars for many years - all in the interest of cost-control - and it is ‘normal’ for those pins to be able to ‘wobble’ to a lesser or greater degree, it doesn’t indicate a ‘problem’ with the individual guitar, it’s the way they’re built.

Many, perhaps most, owners are either unaware of this or, if they are aware, they don’t worry about it - most owners aren’t geeky about guitar-details the way we AGF-ers are.

In the section about pins falling out, i was advising the OP how to make a too-small tapered pin stay in place in the non-tapered, straight-drilled pin-hole when the guitar is turned upside-down - nothing more, nothing less.

Nowhere did I say that pins don’t need to be properly fitted - in fact, I have taper-reamed and slotted the pin-holes and installed properly-fitting solid, non-slotted pins in my own Martins. This is the advice I would always give if I was asked a question such as, “What is the best way to ensure well-fitting pins and protect my bridge-plate from being damaged by the strings’ ball-ends”. But that question wasn’t asked by the OP, and I saw no virtue in answering a question he hadn’t asked. I simply explained how he could prevent a too-small tapered pin from falling out of a non-tapered straight-drilled hole - that is not the same as your claim that I said, ”As long as the pins don't fall out when you turn the guitar upside down”.

Yes, the long and short is that the guitars are not finished in the interest of saving production costs.

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by stringjunky

Yes, the long and short is that the guitars are not finished in the interest of saving production costs.

Yep, can’t argue with that SJ.

The Collings I owned during 2018 did have properly tapered and slotted pin-holes. But every Martin I’ve owned (five in total) came with tapered pins which stuck up by 1/8” or so, in straight-drilled holes. It took me ten minutes to ream the holes to fit the pins - 100,000 guitars per year x 10 minutes per guitar = 16,666 man-hours. I don’t know what a worker gets paid per hour in the factory, but it’s pretty obvious that leaving the holes un-tapered must result in a considerable saving.

But personally, I’d rather they fitted the pins properly, even if that meant putting an extra 50 bucks on the MRSP.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

If they fall out, all it needs is a swabbing around the top-half of the hole with wood-glue or preferably CA, allow to dry overnight, and test again in the morning. If the pins still fall out, repeat the glue/dry/test thing until they stay in place. Then you’re golden.

A suggestion to glue the bridge pins in place?

Glue? Am I reading this correctly?

[musicman1951]

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

But personally, I’d rather they fitted the pins properly, even if that meant putting an extra 50 bucks on the MRSP.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

I totally agree (although I'm pretty sure they're not paying $50 for 10 minutes work).

[seannx]

Originally Posted by TBman

A suggestion to glue the bridge pins in place?

Glue? Am I reading this correctly?

The suggestion is to apply glue on the inside surface of the pin hole to add enough thickness so after it dries, and a pin is inserted, the pin won't fall out if the guitar is turned upside down. The pin isn’t glued in place.

If you put the pins in the holes without strings, and turn the guitar face-downwards, do the pins fall out, or do they remain in place? If they remain in place, the luthier is correct, they are ‘normal’ for tapered pins in straight holes. If they fall out, all it needs is a swabbing around the top-half of the hole with wood-glue or preferably CA, allow to dry overnight, and test again in the morning. If the pins still fall out, repeat the glue/dry/test thing until they stay in place. Then you’re golden.

I’m not sure why it’s a problem if the pins fall out when the guitar is turned face down. Maybe that saves time searching for them if that happens. When I change strings the guitar always stays face up.