Somogyi Guitars... what's the big deal?

[QuadFather]

So as not to hijack Missouri Picker's thread, I thought I'd ask my question here instead.

At the risk of sounding ignorant, I've never even heard of this company. I got on the website and saw some very beautiful guitars, but are these things made with platinum fret wire or something?

I can see instances where any guitar builder can put enough stuff into a guitar, either through very rare woods or excessive "bling" to justify 25k+ guitars... I've just never seen such a thing.

Of course, there was that Martin anniversary guitar that was ridiculously ugly that was covered head to toe in abalone and artwork, and I think the price on that one was 100k, but I wouldn't have given you $100 for it.

Then again, that's why this is America and the greatest country in the world. I have absolutely no problem with a builder charging, or a buyer paying that kind of price tag... just wondering what it is about this particular company I've never heard of that justifies their price tag.

[dwalton]

google: somogyi guitar

should get you started...

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by QuadFather

...At the risk of sounding ignorant, I've never even heard of this company...
...I have absolutely no problem with a builder charging, or a buyer paying that kind of price tag... just wondering what it is about this particular company I've never heard of that justifies their price tag.

Hi QF...
It is a man named Ervin Somogyi - not really a 'company', and he builds them one at a time. Like James Olson (Olson guitars), Michael Bashkin (Bashkin Guitars), Tim McKnight (McKnight Guitars), Claxton, Mustapick, Sexauer, Martin, Gibson, Taylor etc his instruments bear his name.

I own & play some really nice handbuilt instruments, and the first time I played a Somogyi I did not think there would be an appreciable difference in the quality and the tone - and I was wrong.

My rating scale breaks down like this for instruments:

• Student grade manufactured
• Medium quality consumer manufactured
• Upper level consumer manufactured
• Prosumer manufactured
• Pro manufactured
• Small factory semi-handbuilt (very high quality)
• Handbuilt
• Orchestra grade handbuilt

Somogyi are definitely in the Orchestra Grade and priced accordingly.

[rforman15]

My rating scale breaks down like this for instruments:

Student grade manufactured
Medium quality consumer manufactured
Upper level consumer manufactured
Prosumer manufactured
Pro manufactured
Small factory semi-handbuilt (very high quality)
Handbuilt
Orchestra grade handbuilt


that's a good rating scale, but sometimes small factory trumps handbuilt. I own examples of both. I have a Borges, and he is a very highly respected builder. But my custom Martins (not even small factory, rather big factory) are every bit as good. And that doesn't diminish the greatness of the Borges. It's an amazing instrument. So the scale is a good guide or indicator but not absolute.

Oftentimes, handbuilt guitars can be a little more quirky and less consistent than small factory guitars. In a way we pay for the quirks because that's what makes them individual pieces. Martin doesn't offer that even the custom instruments.

Like I wrote in the other thread my one encounter with Somogyi guitars was at the Headlsdburg Guitar Festival in 2003. His guitar was behind a glass case. All the other builders had their guitars out and I played some amazing guitars during the couple of days I attended the festival. So whether the Somogyi was heads above the Olson and the Wingert and the Borges and all the others, I wouldn't know.

Lastly, your highest rating of Orchestra Grade, I don't buy into the notion that there is one person in the whole world who builds at that level. I'd also like to see you describe the characteristics that set the orchestra grade above the handbuilt. Like I wrote in the other thread, I do have some thoughts, i.e. I don't believe steel flattops reach that level, but you chose to not acknowledge those comments.

[HHP]

Question about the rating scale that always occurs to me. At what point going up the scale do you reach the point that 99% of non-guitar playing audience can discern no difference?

[Brock Poling]

There are quite a few builders above a 20k base price. They each have their own following for their own reasons. It is one of those things where either you "get" why they are priced like this or you don't. As we know guitars are an intensely personal choice and one person's holy grail is likely to be anothers "so-so" choice. His guitars are some of the finest I have ever seen.

Ervin is a master of the craft. He has influenced a huge number of builders with his teaching and his writing.

[rforman15]

forget the audience in these discussions it's a player centric discussion. The audience probably does not know or care. As a player myself, I listen to tone when I listen to a musical performance, but I doubt most people do unless they are real music aficionados.

[rforman15]

Originally Posted by Brock Poling

There are quite a few builders above a 20k base price. They each have their own following for their own reasons. It is one of those things where either you "get" why they are priced like this or you don't. As we know guitars are an intensely personal choice and one person's holy grail is likely to be anothers "so-so" choice.

Ervin is a master of the craft though.

Forget price, leave price out of the equation, price can be driven by several factors that have nothing to do with tone or quality. Usually tone and quality follow price, but that isn't always the case. The discussion, to my understanding, is what makes the Somogyi superior, for example, to the Olsen. I am willing to follow the path of debate that says the Somogyi is a superior musical instrument, not more expensive, but so far I have seen no argument in favor for why it is so. Where's the proof. I'd gladly pay 25K plus for an archtop or classical. I haven't played a steel that I thought was so above and beyond that I would pay an extra 15K. In the other thread I talked a lot about timbre but I guess even you builders don't understand this concept.

[rosewoodsteel]

Some folks travel from A to B in a VW.
Some folks prefer an Audi, Lexus, BMW, etc.
If you have the bucks for the 25K guitar and it's something you really want....

[Brock Poling]

Originally Posted by rforman15

Forget price, leave price out of the equation, price can be driven by several factors that have nothing to do with tone or quality. Usually tone and quality follow price, but that isn't always the case. The discussion, to my understanding, is what makes the Somogyi superior, for example, to the Olsen. I am willing to follow the path of debate that says the Somogyi is a superior musical instrument, not more expensive, but so far I have seen no argument in favor for why it is so. Where's the proof. In the other thread I talked a lot about timbre but I guess even you builders don't understand this concept.

I understand what you are driving at, but I don't know how you can have a conversation like that without experiencing one of his instruments. Seems to me it is kind of like trying to explain what "red" is to someone who has never seen the color red. Not a dis, just what I perceive to be a limitation on terms and language.

[rforman15]

Originally Posted by rosewoodsteel

Some folks travel from A to B in a VW.
Some folks prefer an Audi, Lexus, BMW, etc.
If you have the bucks for the 25K guitar and it's something you really want....

Again, if you have the bucks and want it isn't the point. If you have the bucks and want it, absolutely go for it, what do I care. The question is: is it a superior musical instrument. Further, the people paying it are probably lawyers and other professionals, so they are hardly those players who are in a position to really know or get the difference since they aren't the best musicians.

[rforman15]

Originally Posted by Brock Poling

I understand what you are driving at, but I don't know how you can have a conversation like that without experiencing one of his instruments. Seems to me it is kind of like trying to explain what "red" is to someone who has never seen the color red. Not a dis, just what I perceive to be a limitation on terms and language.

Hey, I would have experienced his instrument at Healdsburg but his was, and I emphasize, the only guitar that was behind glass and not available to be played. I have played hundreds if not close to a thousand steel string flattops (and other type guitars) and I don't believe they reach Larry's "Orchestral" status. Classical guitars, yes. Archtops, yes. But you are arguing that since I haven't played a guitar by one builder, one single builder, out of all the rest in the world, that I don't understand. Have you played a 1929 L-4? If not, you don't understand. Have you played my Borges? I know you haven't played "my" Borges, well you don't understand. That logic leads nowhere since we all can't play every guitar in the world.

So all I ask, is leave price out of the equation. I have no issue with a 265K guitar, I would pay 35K they are asking for the Parker archtop. I want to talk about these levels that Larry provides and talk about specific things that set one level from another, in absolute musical terms, not $$ terms. Dollars only confuse things.

[Brock Poling]

Originally Posted by rforman15

But you are arguing that since I haven't played a guitar by one builder, one single builder, out of all the rest in the world, that I don't understand.

Not at all...

What I am saying is "you" in the general sense... not specifically YOU.

People who play his guitars either say "AH HA.... THIS is why people are going on about his work" -- or not. My comments about the limitation of language I think plague us in every guitar discussion, not just Ervins.

And at the show, did you ask Ervin if you could play it? He is a very very nice person, and a bit of a character. Don't be put off by things like this. If you spend some time with him you will see that he is a really great guy. I am sure if you ask he would let you play it. It very well may have been a commissioned guitar and he didn't want it to get the usual show wear.

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by HHP

At what point going up the scale do you reach the point that 99% of non-guitar playing audience can discern no difference?

Not much higher than the Estaban level, I'm afraid.

[citycountryguy]

There is no question that instruments--in many different price ranges, vary greatly in quality/sound, etc. I think the rating scale has some validity, but it mixes types a bit. Every once in a while, one of those mass manufactured guitars gets breathed on by a guitar god, and sings far beyond its ken, when measured based merely on its "factory DNA." Sometimes, what would be considered an "orchestra level" guitar by the rating offered simply doesn't have the mojo or voice that its DNA would suggest. After a certain playability threshold is met, it becomes a different equation. The playability level is beyond Esteban, but it is less than a Somogyi.

There is, within certain limits, some relationship between price to quality. However, my closest analogy is to wine buying. There are wines that are "cult" wines that command hundreds of dollars a bottle, even though when blind tasted, they may be considered no better than a $25 bottle that no one has ever heard of. Which would you rather have? Which would you rather drink? That answer may be dependent on many more factors that have to to with the person and the context than the wine itself. And all of that is relative to the resources a person has anyway.

I could afford more expensive wine than I buy. However, to me, the relationship of price to quality is what matters to me. I want to find the best I can at a price point, knowing there will always be more expensive, maybe better, maybe not. It can't be that much better to justify the cost...at least not to me. Now, if I win 60 million in the lottery next week, maybe I'll come back and edit this post. But I doubt it.

Finally, as to the quality of guitars to the quality of the player--don't know where I heard it first, but this saying still rings true: "It's not the arrow, it's the Indian." No offense to Native Americans intended, but it's true. Work on what you know (your left hand) and who you are (your right hand) and you'll find your "orchestra level" guitar that works for who you are--no matter how much (or little) it costs.

Rant over. Peace. And yes, I have several good guitars. But it always comes down to how often and long I put my butt in a seat and play, not which guitar in the house I'm actually playing.