The ONE to rule them all? Gibson 185/Santa Cruz FS/Froggy Bottom K/Taylor GA?

[PJ Rich]

As I research several builders, there seems to be a body shape, call it a small jumbo or finger style, or the acoustic guitar that Picasso painted in his work.

It is not a Dreadnought, but it is the small upper bout and larger lower bout with a narrow waist. The lower bout seems to be ~16 inches and the upper bout seems to be ~12 inches as a range.

In public internet interviews and podcasts with builders, there seems to be a theme of "creating the perfect shape and sound for the ONE acoustic guitar". The builders created the shapes that I mention (obviously builders also craft ~8+ shapes as well). The builders also say that there is no ONE shape that is perfect.

All that said, as I look at the dimensions of guitars that I mention (and other makers too), I keep seeing this size and shape pattern as their most interesting and most compelling (emphasis from the builders who are the experts in my view for resonance, sustain, tone and ease of playability).

I was wondering if others with a lot more experience with this body size and shape, could comment on their experience with this guitar size/shape as the most versatile for finger style, strumming, paired with the voice?

Thanks a million!

[scotchnspeed]

Hi there and welcome!

I am in this camp that the 16" modern variants are perhaps the "perfect"/"One to rule them all" guitar, at least as far as what I am looking for: overall an all-arounder that has power and immediate presence, but can also deliver intimate fingersyle.

A few comments on your list:

-The FS stands out a bit - it is smaller and thinner than the others, and probably a touch less an all-arounder than the others. It excels in fingerstyle and light pick work for singers.

-I would add the undisputed grand-daddy of modern 16" guitars to this list - the Larrivee L.

-I would not consider the GA as in this club, as it is essentially homage to the L, and not going to typically deliver the same power or fingerstyle ring as the rest.

-The J-185 is another prototype of the concept here, but originally designed to be a reduced SJ-200, with a tighter waist, shorter scale, and I think also short of 16" (?). The Froggy Bottom K is a huge upgrade to this one in both power and fingerstyle competence (and possibly one of the best designs in modern guitar building period).

Others I would add to the list would be dread-inspired, but larger and more modern 16" variants. The Goodall Standard comes to mind, and I recently picked up a Turnstone dread, which is actually 16.3! Somogyi-inspired mod-D's kick close to 16", but also command serious $.

All in all I agree - the modern 16" guitars fit as closely to what I would call "perfect."

[dneal]

If you have the budget to entertain Santa Cruz and Froggy, you shouldn’t be looking at Gibson or Taylor.

The Froggy gets my vote, no question.

[scotchnspeed]

^^^^^And Wildwood in Colorado has a very recent one, used, for sale. Google them and check it out. (Before I have to... )

[Dash_Starkiller]

I once played and almost bought a 1989 Gibson everly brothers reissue. It might have been the most comfortable guitar I’ve ever played. It was too far gone to be a good guitar to purchase but man it felt great.

[Mycroft]

Even though the bodies are the same, they each will sound and respond a bit differently from one another because theya re built and braced differently.

I have a Webber Small Jumbo, or "Jumbo Shrimp" as David calls it. Englemann over Australian Blackwood. Not quite as projective as most Dreads, but still plenty loud. (Most Small Jumbos are not as projective as the Dread.) Good solid bass but again, not as deep as a Dread, which I often find a bit muddy and inarticulate. Like most Webbers, very good articulation and separation string to string. Lovely voice. Good both for finger and flatpick. Gives that "big guitar" sense.

OMMV

[Dogma]

Plus all the small-shop builders who make SJ and 185 inspired models - John Walker, Kevin Kopp, Iris/Fairbanks (there's been an Iris 185-inspired instrument in the classifieds here very recently) to name but a few. Like others have said, it's a very popular body style and the guitars can sound great.

[lowrider]

Martin J-40;

''One guitar to rule them all, one guitar to find them, One guitar to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them; In the Land of Mordor where the shadows lie.''

[jseth]

Check out a Goodall Concert Jumbo...

This particular shape/size embodies the perfect acoustic for me... can be very responsive, tone spectrum is terrific for single-note lines of any kind, can be played softly or as loud as you want to go with great effect!

James Goodall's Concert Jumbos are nearly other-worldly for all of the above qualities... that's why I own one, and it is my ONLY 6 string acoustic. I'd play it in any setting without a second thought... it'll hang with dreadnoughts at a bluegrass jam or sound lovely playing sensitive fingerstyle arrangements... and anything in between!

[scotchnspeed]

Originally Posted by lowrider

Martin J-40;

''One guitar to rule them all, one guitar to find them, One guitar to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them; In the Land of Mordor where the shadows lie.''

Yes! Definitely an overlooked, though worthy addition to this list.

Originally Posted by jseth

Check out a Goodall Concert Jumbo...

This particular shape/size embodies the perfect acoustic for me... can be very responsive, tone spectrum is terrific for single-note lines of any kind, can be played softly or as loud as you want to go with great effect!

James Goodall's Concert Jumbos are nearly other-worldly for all of the above qualities... that's why I own one, and it is my ONLY 6 string acoustic. I'd play it in any setting without a second thought... it'll hang with dreadnoughts at a bluegrass jam or sound lovely playing sensitive fingerstyle arrangements... and anything in between!

CJ's are awesome as well! I favor the Standard in this context, as the box size I think is more in line with the other bodies discussed so far. The CJ, like the SCGC FS, is a touch smaller, but huge impact pound for pound/inch for inch.

[Matthew Chulka]

I'm lucky enough to own both a Santa Cruz FS and a Froggy Bottom Model K Deluxe. While these are indeed a nod to the J-185, they're very different from a tonal and responsiveness standpoint.
A Gibson J-185 is most certainly not a "poor man's Model K".

[koolimy]

I have assembled a Long Scale J-185 from a kit, and I agree that in many ways it is one of the most versatile guitar shapes. IMO, the small jumbo shape has the tone of a bigger, thicker OM. Due to its size it can have deep, satisfying bass close to a dreadnought. However, it is also more comfortable to play due to its tight waist, and it also has a softer, rounder sound compared to a punchy dreadnought.

I do think there can be considerable variability between guitars that share this shape, however. I'm sure you can make a killer fingerstyle guitar using this shape, and many makers that have been mentioned here make wonderful fingerstyle guitars from this shape. However, due to its size it is also possible to make a guitar more suitable for strumming or hitting with a pick. There's probably just as much variation within this shape as there can be among different shapes, maybe even more because it sits almost in the perfect middle ground of size. It might just be the perfect shape to express an individual builder's creativity.

[Boozehound]

There's a lot more to tone than body size, and the guitars listed all sound very different.

The problem I personally have with 'one guitar to rule them all' is that I play with a flat pick about 80% of the time and fingerstyle about 20% of the time with bare flesh. Any guitar I have found that is bright and responsive enough to sound good when I play with bare fingers tends to sound harsh and a bit strident to me when strummed.

My 'ideal' is a slope shoulder dread with a short scale length, ideally an old one. Mostly because I strum a lot and like to sing over it and my musical tastes range from rock/punk to folk and singer songwriter.

You mileage will likely vary. I had a Froggy SJ that I actually sold (although sometimes I regret it) while keeping several Gibsons, so I don't necessarily agree that a Froggy or Santa Cruz is automatically 'better' than a Gibson or a Taylor The Froggy sounded too 'pretty' for the style I mostly play. I would like to pick up a Model K someday for fingerstyle use though.

There's always some amount of compromise, and which is best for you depends on your style. If I was taking a blind stab I'd start with a Froggy Model K though

[handers]

Originally Posted by PJ Rich

As I research several builders, there seems to be a body shape, call it a small jumbo or finger style, or the acoustic guitar that Picasso painted in his work.

It is not a Dreadnought, but it is the small upper bout and larger lower bout with a narrow waist. The lower bout seems to be ~16 inches and the upper bout seems to be ~12 inches as a range.

In public internet interviews and podcasts with builders, there seems to be a theme of "creating the perfect shape and sound for the ONE acoustic guitar". The builders created the shapes that I mention (obviously builders also craft ~8+ shapes as well). The builders also say that there is no ONE shape that is perfect.

All that said, as I look at the dimensions of guitars that I mention (and other makers too), I keep seeing this size and shape pattern as their most interesting and most compelling (emphasis from the builders who are the experts in my view for resonance, sustain, tone and ease of playability).

I was wondering if others with a lot more experience with this body size and shape, could comment on their experience with this guitar size/shape as the most versatile for finger style, strumming, paired with the voice?

Thanks a million!

The Froggy K and Santa Cruz are the only ones of these that are handmade. Froggy builds 80-100 guitars/y max. Santa Cruz builds about 400/year. The others build 5-10 times that. Every Froggy gets individual attention to wood selection, bracing, thicknessing, etc in a way that Taylor and Gibson cannot.

The Froggy K that I play regularly, my son's, is one of the best guitars I have played. It is a perfect balance of large real estate top and slightly less volume to handy the tendency to boominess which other small jumbos can have. His was custom built 1/4" less deep at 4". I highly rec these guitars.

hans

[Mark Stone]

Originally Posted by PJ Rich

{Clipped} . . . . . . I was wondering if others with a lot more experience with this body size and shape, could comment on their experience with this guitar size/shape as the most versatile for finger style, strumming, paired with the voice?

Thanks a million!

Hi PJ Rich and welcome to the AGF! I think most responders to your question so far thought you were looking for specific guitar suggestions, as opposed to comments on the versatility of the shape. My answer to your question is simply that the shape you describe is probably the closest body style to being the picture of versatility, but still imperfect. Where it falls short, in the world of vocal accompaniment, is in decay and power. That's why several of my friends and I keep a smaller instrument and a Dread or Jumbo. I have my 110e Dread on stage to use for heavy-strumming-fast decay and power songs ("Bangs"), whereas the 814ce (a Taylor GA) serves as a strummer for softer songs ("Pretty Bangs") and fingerpicking, where decay is not needed. But, my GA is versatile enough that it gets fully 80% of the stage work.

Hope this helps! And, again, welcome!