Italian and Swiss Spruce tops

[fpuhan]

I listened to Stephen Holst, the man who made my custom guitar. For my purposes, he recommended Swiss spruce, and even gave me the source: https://www.tonewood.ch/en

There's an awful lot of good information on this site (note the "en" for English). As with everything else Stephen suggested, the results came together in a spectacular form, and I couldn't be more delighted!

[guitarman68]

Originally Posted by RJVB

Sorry, but I think/fear that's just myth and whistful hearing. I have no doubt that the contents of a tree's sapwood vary with a lot of things including the phase of the moon, but I strongly doubt that you can still identify a piece of wood as "moon" after it has been dried (and not labelled as such).

I do also believe that luthiers and/or knowledgeable loggers are able to recognise the trees most likely to give premium top woods, meaning that every moon-spruce top probably comes from a premium tree. Here's a simple but not necessarily easy test. Cut down a tree during (IIRC) a full moon night but leave a big enough stump (if possible with a branch or two so it can keep on living). Cut down the rest at the opposite phase of day during the next new moon phase. Select a few sets of equal apparent quality from both pieces, enough that 2 (or more) luthiers can each build at least 2 pairs of otherwise identical (moon,antimoon) guitars out of them. My prediction is that a double-blind playing&listening test will reveal no systematic differences, and as many cases where the antimoon sounds better than the moon as vice-versa.

I'm not an expert and have no opportunity to A/B - comparison of the same type of guitar from one builder. But I trust that century old knowledge of loggers that seem to got lost a bit in our modern and post modern times. Yes, today it often sounds like a marketing thing, and I have great guitars that are not "moon spruce topped".
The moon spruce sure is only one part of the sound of the guitar, and the sum of all parts contributes to the sound of a mediocre or great sounding guitar, the experience and knowledge of the builder being the biggest part. And if he decides to use moon logged spruce, he will know the reason, same with using hot hide glue for some parts or real nitrocellulose for the finish.

[kirkham13]

Ill take a stab at it...

European spruces tend to have more overtones and are likely softer leaning more towards the redwood cedar spectrum than Adirondack and sitka, which tend to be more singular and stiff- like bluegrass.

[sublro]

so i know the guidance of "you have to play the one you're gonna buy", but...

let's say that I'm choosing between a new martin 000-18 and a new Martin custom shop 000-14, basically just a 000-18 with an italian spruce top sub'd in for the sitka.... and i can't sit and A/B them...

Interested in people's best stab at which one I should get....

I play a mixed bag of pop, country, motown, and blues-y rock. I will have an undersaddle transducer (james may ultratonic, think K&K with no tubby bass and feedback) in it.

I would like it to be smooth when played through a PA, but feel powerful and punchy when I'm playing acoustically.

would you go sitka or italian? why?

[Silly Moustache]

Funny thing about trees ... they don't recognise political boundaries.
European Spruce (or Norway spruce) grows as far east as Russia as far south west as eastern France and right down the eastern Adriatic into Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, Albania, North Macedonia, Bulgaria and over the border (!) into northern Greece, and even tip toes a bit into Asia!

It is our standard spruce. We use it mostly for fence posts and toilet paper.

It is however, a very fine tonewood, and not due to where it grows but how it grows.

Whatever "country" you care to attribute it to - it is European Spruce.

[Silly Moustache]

Oh and for Christmas trees too !

[Skydog]

My 1982 OM28 was built with spruce sourced from the Levin buyout. Martin lists it as Spruce-AAV-Alpine on the build sheet. It has a beautiful tone, but there’s no way you can compare tops on individual guitars as there are too many other variables.

[TheGITM]

Sitka, Adirondack, and European spruce are all popular tonewoods used for the soundboards of acoustic guitars, but they each have distinct characteristics:

Sitka Spruce:

Most common spruce used in guitars, from beginner to high-end models.
Considered the "archetypal" spruce sound.
Warmer and has a sweeter tone compared to Adirondack.
Slightly less stiff, with a lower volume ceiling.
Easier to get a good sound from with a lighter playing style.

Adirondack Spruce (Red Spruce):

Less common and more expensive than Sitka.
Generally considered an upgrade for its tonal qualities.
Stiffer and more responsive, with a brighter and more articulate sound.
Handles aggressive playing styles better due to its higher volume ceiling.
Can sound cold and unresponsive with a light touch.

European Spruce:

Gaining popularity among high-end guitar builders.
Offers a balance between Adirondack and Sitka.
Warmer than Adirondack with a quicker response than Sitka.
Described as having some of the headroom (dynamic range) of Adirondack with a more complex and versatile sound.
Pairs well with darker back and side woods for a visually appealing contrast.

Attached is a table summarizing the key differences...

It's important to remember that these are generalizations. The tonal qualities of a specific piece of wood can vary within each species. The skill of the luthier in selecting and crafting the wood also plays a significant role in the final sound of the guitar.

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by sublro

so i know the guidance of "you have to play the one you're gonna buy", but...

let's say that I'm choosing between a new martin 000-18 and a new Martin custom shop 000-14, basically just a 000-18 with an italian spruce top sub'd in for the sitka.... and i can't sit and A/B them...

Interested in people's best stab at which one I should get....

I play a mixed bag of pop, country, motown, and blues-y rock. I will have an undersaddle transducer (james may ultratonic, think K&K with no tubby bass and feedback) in it.

I would like it to be smooth when played through a PA, but feel powerful and punchy when I'm playing acoustically.

would you go sitka or italian? why?

I would take the custom shop 000-14, not so much for the difference in the type of spruce top, but for the difference in attention to detail in the custom shop work, especially if they are scalloping the braces on the 000-14CS. Either top could sound better than the other, just depending on the given top, and the basic caliber of voice that it has within itself compared to the other.

All in all, you probably stand a slightly better chance with custom shop model being a little bit better guitar...but that is the old "shot in the dark" without being able to play and hear them first. You are just going off of "Paper Pedigree" per se'.


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[FretMuse]

Originally Posted by sublro

so i know the guidance of "you have to play the one you're gonna buy", but...

let's say that I'm choosing between a new martin 000-18 and a new Martin custom shop 000-14, basically just a 000-18 with an italian spruce top sub'd in for the sitka.... and i can't sit and A/B them...

Interested in people's best stab at which one I should get....

I play a mixed bag of pop, country, motown, and blues-y rock. I will have an undersaddle transducer (james may ultratonic, think K&K with no tubby bass and feedback) in it.

I would like it to be smooth when played through a PA, but feel powerful and punchy when I'm playing acoustically.

would you go sitka or italian? why?

sublro-

I see you live on the Cape. Have you been up to The Music Emporium in Lexington? It's a great place to A/B. They have a couple of 000-14 Custom Shop Italian Spruce plus plenty of Sitka (incl. 000-18) and Adi.

Having said that, I recently spent some time with luthier Ron Pinkham, who is up in Rockport, Maine. He walked me through his workshop, where he has a ton of tonewoods. He has a very strong predisposition for European Spruce, and particularly German Spruce. He even argues that how tall the trees grow, how they face the sun at different elevations, etc., matters in regard European Spruces, whether from Germany, Italy, Ukraine, etc.

I recently bought a Bourgeois Custom 0 with a Bearclaw Italian top on Rosewood back and sides. I liked it enough that I sold a newly bought Bourgeois 00 that had an Adi top on Rosewood. Both were great, but I liked the sonics of the Bearclaw Italian just that much more.

Punchy-wise, I had an 000-18 and an 000-28. I think the 000-28 was punchier, and mostly because Rosewood B&S (vs. Mahogany).