What is the best internal microphone for classical guitar that sounds very natural?

[idimata]

I'm looking for an internal microphone that will go into a classical guitar that already has separate end-pin jacks for piezo and other pickups.
The microphone has to be externally powered, as by 48V phantom power and not require any internal battery. It also has to be lightweight and not add significant mass to the guitar.

I searched the interwebs, and here are microphones that were mentioned as possibly good internal microphones for nylon strings:

- DPA 4061 - This appears to be the go-to high-end internal microphone here.
- DPA 4661 - Not many people are talking about this one online, but it's a more robust version of the 4061, with a more ruggid stainless steel housing as well as thicker cable but also lower self-noise.
- the2Mic-Endpin : Deluxe - Offers good phase cancellation via 2 microphones and is powered by phantom power.
- Promo Clippy EM272 - https://micbooster.com/clippy-and-pl...icrophone.html

Here are popular/well-known microphones I've given up on:
- I would say a K&K Microphone as a microphone (such as the K&K Quantum Trinity Microphone) or Highlander IP-2 - However, these don't appear to be available as stand-alone microphones, only as part of a microphone plus piezo, and I'm going with a different piezo pickup via a separate end-pin jack. The K&K Microphone is also less detailed than a DPA or some of the other options. Also, the Hilander IP-2 requires a battery.
- LR Baggs Lyric, Anthem, and Session VT - These annoyingly require a 9V battery.
- Not the D-TAR multi-source pickup - It requires AA battery power.
- Oktava MKE-3 - Hard to find but also needs a 3-4.5V battery internally, high technical knowledge to figure out how to install i
- AER AK 15 Plus system - good name reputation, but it requires a battery.
- Barlett Mic & Countryman I2 - I'm looking for a permanent installation of the mic inside the guitar, which these don't offer, and the guitar doesn't have a standard soundhole to mount them into.

[Dino757]

Hi Idimata. Are you saying the end pin jack is already in use and you need something that doesn't use it, or are you saying you will be replacing everytihng and your newly selected microphone can use that jack?

[Dino757]

I just read your post again, and I think I understand what you are looking for. I have been on this same frustrating quest for over a year now - I'm just trying to find some kind of a solution in a solo classical performance situation that can deliver louder volumes with a very natural sound and no feedback, and I'd like it to be a solid, permanent installation.



By far the best *sounding* solution has been a mic on a stand pointed a few inches off the sound hole at about the 18th fret (I use a Neumann K184 condenser going into a Fishman Performer amp). In this configuration, I can use the amp's effects loop to add my own EQ, reverb, and delay, and when EQ'd slightly for the venue, I can deliver a fantastic sound. The problem comes in when the noise floor in the performance space increases (loud restaurants/events) and my client asks for more volume. There's a hard limit to how much output I can provide before feedback, so inevitably feedback ensues.



I started looking at pickup solutions last year, and I ended up installing the LR Baggs Lyric system in two of my classical guitars. Like you, I could not stand the internal 9V battery situation, and I ended up installing those plastic 9V battery cases/holders in both guitars on the northern side plates of the upper bout a few inches from the neck joint. It was a real hassle, but it offered easy battery replacement and less worries. The Lyric systems were workable, but I gave up on them after a few months. In both guitars, the Lyric mics produced a slight boxy, midrange, almost honky sound that had to be taken out with a three-band parametric EQ pedal (I used the Empress ParaEq). A cut at 400MHz and 800 MHz did the trick, but I was still never overjoyed with the final sound.



So a few months ago, I found a company in California that had a system called "the2Mic" (it used to be called the MiniFlex). Theory behind it is that instead of using one microphone, two are used, and through some kind of phase cancellation magic they can eliminate problem frequency bands and increase gain before feedback. Strings By Mail is their sole distributor, and I ordered the "Viper" model, which attaches to the guitar using a complex, wrap-around elastic bracket that mounts one mic internally (via the sound hole) and the other just above the strings. Runs on phantom power. I was skeptical, but it sounds great and does in fact allow for more volume before feedback. You can still make it howl, but you've got more headroom to deal with. I believe this company has been active on this forum in the steel string sections.



However, the Viper mounting system is a hassle, and I'm continually messing around with the cable connection, which has a tendency to allow the balanced phono cable to pull out unexpectedly. Strings by mail sells another model from the same company that mounts completely internally (via the end pin jack) and still uses phantom power - it's called "the2Mic Endpin Deluxe." I ordered this last week, and I'll post an update here after installation if you or anyone else is interested. If this model sounds as good as the Viper, it might be a good solution.

[idimata]

Originally Posted by Dino757

Hi Idimata. Are you saying the end pin jack is already in use and you need something that doesn't use it, or are you saying you will be replacing everytihng and your newly selected microphone can use that jack?

Great clarifying question. What I mean is that I already have pickups going to separate end-pin jacks. I'm looking to add an internal microphone to its own end-pin jack.

[idimata]

Originally Posted by Dino757

I just read your post again, and I think I understand what you are looking for. I have been on this same frustrating quest for over a year now - I'm just trying to find some kind of a solution in a solo classical performance situation that can deliver louder volumes with a very natural sound and no feedback, and I'd like it to be a solid, permanent installation.



By far the best *sounding* solution has been a mic on a stand pointed a few inches off the sound hole at about the 18th fret (I use a Neumann K184 condenser going into a Fishman Performer amp). In this configuration, I can use the amp's effects loop to add my own EQ, reverb, and delay, and when EQ'd slightly for the venue, I can deliver a fantastic sound. The problem comes in when the noise floor in the performance space increases (loud restaurants/events) and my client asks for more volume. There's a hard limit to how much output I can provide before feedback, so inevitably feedback ensues.



I started looking at pickup solutions last year, and I ended up installing the LR Baggs Lyric system in two of my classical guitars. Like you, I could not stand the internal 9V battery situation, and I ended up installing those plastic 9V battery cases/holders in both guitars on the northern side plates of the upper bout a few inches from the neck joint. It was a real hassle, but it offered easy battery replacement and less worries. The Lyric systems were workable, but I gave up on them after a few months. In both guitars, the Lyric mics produced a slight boxy, midrange, almost honky sound that had to be taken out with a three-band parametric EQ pedal (I used the Empress ParaEq). A cut at 400MHz and 800 MHz did the trick, but I was still never overjoyed with the final sound.



So a few months ago, I found a company in California that had a system called "the2Mic" (it used to be called the MiniFlex). Theory behind it is that instead of using one microphone, two are used, and through some kind of phase cancellation magic they can eliminate problem frequency bands and increase gain before feedback. Strings By Mail is their sole distributor, and I ordered the "Viper" model, which attaches to the guitar using a complex, wrap-around elastic bracket that mounts one mic internally (via the sound hole) and the other just above the strings. Runs on phantom power. I was skeptical, but it sounds great and does in fact allow for more volume before feedback. You can still make it howl, but you've got more headroom to deal with. I believe this company has been active on this forum in the steel string sections.



However, the Viper mounting system is a hassle, and I'm continually messing around with the cable connection, which has a tendency to allow the balanced phono cable to pull out unexpectedly. Strings by mail sells another model from the same company that mounts completely internally (via the end pin jack) and still uses phantom power - it's called "the2Mic Endpin Deluxe." I ordered this last week, and I'll post an update here after installation if you or anyone else is interested. If this model sounds as good as the Viper, it might be a good solution.

Yes I agree, it sounds like we definitely have this search in common. Wise choice on the EQ pedal! I too have recently purchased a the2Mic, a non-internal version, off of eBay to test out. I'm going to try to test it out to see if it works on my existing classical guitar, I just haven't had the time to do so yet. You are correct, I should also add 'the2Mic-Endpin : Deluxe' to this list, as its unique design does make it a serious contender. It also doesn't require batteries and runs on phantom power.
I will add this in.

[fitness1]

I'm assuming the reason you don't want an external mic is that you move around too much?

If so, have you considered something like this (or the K&K Meridian) ?

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=677981

From my experience, an internal mic in a classical is a very slippery slope because of the tonal characteristics compared to a steel string.

[idimata]

Originally Posted by fitness1

I'm assuming the reason you don't want an external mic is that you move around too much?

If so, have you considered something like this (or the K&K Meridian) ?

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=677981

From my experience, an internal mic in a classical is a very slippery slope because of the tonal characteristics compared to a steel string.

I already have a DPA 4099, a KNA NG-2, and external stereo condenser microphone. However, I would like the option of a discreet internal microphone, which has benefits over the previously mention. I also have a stereo pedalboard and want to be able to mix the aforementioned with an internal microphone. I also don't want to always have to fiddle with an external mechanism to achieve an amplified goal for certain small- to mid-sized events.

[Doug Young]

No internal mic is going to sound great by itself, the inside of a guitar is not a good environment for a mic. But since you already have another (2?) pickup, a mic can add air, and frankly, almost any mic will do that. The difference between the various options is going to be small.

The DPA 4060/61 is a popular choice, and works well. I have been using the Audix L5O, which is a bit cheaper ($200 new) and *much* easier to work with - thicker wires.

I have the Bartlett in one guitar, and that works great as well. I just don't use their clip, but mount it insidethe same way I do with others - a small wire clip and a bit of foam. I've also used the Sennheiser ME-2, which works well. I tried an inexpensive Rode mic, recently - forget the model - and that was good, too. People used to rave about the $19 Radio Shack lapel mic, which also worked well.

Basically, you end up rolling off most of the low end anyway, since the inside of a guitar is so boomy, and most mics will end up sounding more or less the same, adding a bit of liveliness and high end to the more solid pickup sound.

[idimata]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

No internal mic is going to sound great by itself, the inside of a guitar is not a good environment for a mic. But since you already have another (2?) pickup, a mic can add air, and frankly, almost any mic will do that. The difference between the various options is going to be small.

The DPA 4060/61 is a popular choice, and works well. I have been using the Audix L5O, which is a bit cheaper ($200 new) and *much* easier to work with - thicker wires.

I have the Bartlett in one guitar, and that works great as well. I just don't use their clip, but mount it insidethe same way I do with others - a small wire clip and a bit of foam. I've also used the Sennheiser ME-2, which works well. I tried an inexpensive Rode mic, recently - forget the model - and that was good, too. People used to rave about the $19 Radio Shack lapel mic, which also worked well.

Basically, you end up rolling off most of the low end anyway, since the inside of a guitar is so boomy, and most mics will end up sounding more or less the same, adding a bit of liveliness and high end to the more solid pickup sound.

Thanks for the advice, Doug! I appreciate it

[idimata]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

No internal mic is going to sound great by itself, the inside of a guitar is not a good environment for a mic. But since you already have another (2?) pickup, a mic can add air, and frankly, almost any mic will do that. The difference between the various options is going to be small.

The DPA 4060/61 is a popular choice, and works well. I have been using the Audix L5O, which is a bit cheaper ($200 new) and *much* easier to work with - thicker wires.

I have the Bartlett in one guitar, and that works great as well. I just don't use their clip, but mount it insidethe same way I do with others - a small wire clip and a bit of foam. I've also used the Sennheiser ME-2, which works well. I tried an inexpensive Rode mic, recently - forget the model - and that was good, too. People used to rave about the $19 Radio Shack lapel mic, which also worked well.

Basically, you end up rolling off most of the low end anyway, since the inside of a guitar is so boomy, and most mics will end up sounding more or less the same, adding a bit of liveliness and high end to the more solid pickup sound.

I agree with you Doug! I think I should focus more so on using it in combination with other pickups to add frequencies at lower volumes that improve the overall sound. When you do this in your YouTube videos, it always sounds amazing. I have a Felix 2 with which I can use it, and since I'm going to have more than one pickup, I've been conceptualizing a small pedalboard of additional preamps for the added pickups and am thinking about a Grace Design ROXi, which has a HPF that can be placed at 175 Hz.

You bring up a good point about the cord. I bought the DPA 4661 because the cord is thicker and the lapel mic overall more robust while still being very similar to the 4061. I know it's going to be a nightmare for me to figure out how to turn it into a usable soldered mic that has an endpin jack but think it's worth it in the end.

[CoastStrings]

LR Baggs used to offer the Lyric Classical. Has it been discontinued?

[Doug Young]

It's fun to experiment, and maybe you'll hit on something great, so I really shouldn't discourage you, but... :-) In my experience, you get at best diminishing returns from more that 2 sources, and at worst, a mess. The logistics of blending 3 or more pickups, dealing with phase and interaction issues, as well as the just the explosion of options (how to best EQ each?, what level should each be?, which one do I jump on when I get feedback?, etc) just gets to be unmanageable, for very little gain. I know some people do use lots of sources and at least appear to make it work. My own high pickup count was 4, and that was before I realized I was working too hard for a sound that was arguably worse than I had with just 2. If I was doing more than 2, I'd just go with a small mixer instead of trying to somehow cobble together something using 2-channel preamps - that's what I've mostly seen people who use multi-pickup setups do, with some exceptions (David Wilcox used to use multiple SPS-1's somehow, for example)

For live performance, in a venue where the audience can truly appreciate the sound quality, your DPA 4099 on a classical should be stunning all by itself. For cases where that doesn't work (too loud, poor sound system, loud crowd, whatever), a simple dual source setup of a UST or SBT+internal mic should be almost as good, and even a single source with a good IR pedal (ToneDexter, for example) should sound very good. With a dual source, you can also just have a single TRS jack in the guitar, making life simpler all around.

[stringman5]

I've been using this. Pretty happy with it. It's wireless, and doesn't require any modification to your instrument. There are numerous reviews on You Tube you can check out.

[idimata]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

It's fun to experiment, and maybe you'll hit on something great, so I really shouldn't discourage you, but... :-) In my experience, you get at best diminishing returns from more that 2 sources, and at worst, a mess. The logistics of blending 3 or more pickups, dealing with phase and interaction issues, as well as the just the explosion of options (how to best EQ each?, what level should each be?, which one do I jump on when I get feedback?, etc) just gets to be unmanageable, for very little gain. I know some people do use lots of sources and at least appear to make it work. My own high pickup count was 4, and that was before I realized I was working too hard for a sound that was arguably worse than I had with just 2. If I was doing more than 2, I'd just go with a small mixer instead of trying to somehow cobble together something using 2-channel preamps - that's what I've mostly seen people who use multi-pickup setups do, with some exceptions (David Wilcox used to use multiple SPS-1's somehow, for example)

For live performance, in a venue where the audience can truly appreciate the sound quality, your DPA 4099 on a classical should be stunning all by itself. For cases where that doesn't work (too loud, poor sound system, loud crowd, whatever), a simple dual source setup of a UST or SBT+internal mic should be almost as good, and even a single source with a good IR pedal (ToneDexter, for example) should sound very good. With a dual source, you can also just have a single TRS jack in the guitar, making life simpler all around.

I totally agree! That's actually what I've discovered also: I have a small digital mixer on my pedalboard that can mix up to 6 signals, a 1010music BlueBox, to be able to mix the pickups -- for example, I can bias a contact mic or internal mic for just percussions to get a good kick and snare effect.

I wouldn't use them all at once but choose the best one for the best occasion -- I came up with a table that points to how I would use them and will send it to you via PM, not to review in detail just to give a visual of what I was thinking

[idimata]

Originally Posted by CoastStrings

LR Baggs used to offer the Lyric Classical. Has it been discontinued?

Thanks for the suggestion! It wouldn't work for me since it requires a battery. I get too anxious about batteries running out and things failing before a performance. I would go mad with concern about the 9V battery. Thanks anyhow, however.

Originally Posted by stringman5

I've been using this. Pretty happy with it. It's wireless, and doesn't require any modification to your instrument. There are numerous reviews on You Tube you can check out.

Thanks, I checked out the videos and went to the website. Thanks for letting me know about a cool device! It wouldn't work for me since it requires a battery to change; also, the guitar I'm having built doesn't have a conventional sound hole, so the transmitter would not fit. It also relies too much on 2.4 GHz, which is very prone to dropouts in places with lots of self-phones such as during a live performance (it will work during rehearsal then as soon as the room is filled not perform at its best), but I would like to know more about the smart frequency hopping and how it performs live. I really like the design of the preamp, however, and that the transmitter only weighs 26 grams. It's pretty cool! I can't use it but will definitely keep this in mind. I just realized that this is the same system that Bradford Werner at ThisIsClassicalGuitar reviewed a year ago. I remember now! This is actually a really cool, well though-through system from a pretty innovative company.