700 vs 900 What's diff beside wood, ornament and $$$?

seekingsq · #1 07-07-2003, 04:33 AM

I am new to this forum with only a 512 to my name. Now under GAS attack for another axe. I am not living in US so I do not have the luxury to choose with my ears. I have to rely on catalogs, reviews, feedbacks, opinions and whatever information I can get. So having to mail order, what I get is what I read.

I have yet to decide on any particular series but quite incline for 14 model. Price gaps between different series are obvious. However, comparison of prices between certain series is meaningless like comparing apple to orange because of the different types of tonewood used. But 700 and 900 series stand out as using the same top (Engelmann) and back/sides (EI rosewood) albeit different grade and different ornaments. The price difference between 700 vs 900 is US$1,500 or 46% based on MSRP. This is quite a sum to pay just for the better wood and abalone shell inlay.

Simply stated, the tone of a guitar is determined by the design, tonewood and craftmanship. Without the chance to hear the end product (tone) before I order, my selection is based on the writeup on the 3 contributing factors.

The Taylor catalogue helps a little. Designs and sizes are similar across series. It provides some information on the grade of tonewood used plus pictures showing the various cosmetic inlays. But it lack information on craftmanship. By craftmanship, I mean input from luthier-grade worker. Surely I would not expect voicing done for 300 series, but what about the 900 series? It is in the price range of hand made custom guitar. On the presentation series, it mentions that Mr Bob Taylor "personally chaperones each Presentation Series guitar through production." How this is interpreted in term of input from the master is anyone's guess.

Can anyone who has toured the Taylor factory or has insider knowledge care to enlighten me?

Splatt · #2 07-07-2003, 05:12 AM

Voicing is only different for the dread and jumbo stylee models in the 5x series and up. I think it was Bob who said there is 90% of a 9x guitar in a 3x guitar. Basically... the grade of wood will be top notch (has nothing to do with the sound though) and appointments are much better. If you just want something that sounds great and not bothered about the appointments then i'd suggest looking for a 4x limited (rosewood) and save yourself a couple of thousand $

pollajak · #3 07-07-2003, 07:46 AM

Hi,

I had this question when I was initially interested by Taylor guitars. I inspected many guitars, talked to sellers, read review, and compared prices. I found that all upper-level Taylor guitars are consistent in craftsmanship quality. They were build by same people and equipment. Sizes, types and grades of woods, and cosmatics determine the prices.

Obviously, 900 series uses better grade of woods than 700 series does (only 714ce uses Cedar top instead Engleman Spruce). And cosmatics look more precious and elegant. Sound and Taste are main factors. I prefer Koa rosette and rosewood binding of 700 series to fretboard inlay and celluloid binding of current 900 series.

TimmyPack · #4 07-07-2003, 08:44 AM

They go from fancy ( 700 ) to real fancy ( 800 ), to ultra fancy ( 900 ). It just depends on how pretty you want the guitar. I recently bought a 414R-ce. Its a 400 series guitar, with sitka top, and rosewood b/s. Its everything a 714ce is, except the gold tuners I think, but that can be easily fixed for around $50.

if you are going after sound and decide on a 700 series, its worth it for yourself to get an upgraded top. Even if you stay with the same top wood, a nicer piece of wood, will effect the sound. The top is where you get most of your sound from. The grade of the back and sides, like already stated, dont really affect the sound that much, but the top wood will.

Hope this helps
TP

Stuart · #5 07-07-2003, 08:55 AM

You got it . . . better grade of wood and more eye candy. For this reason, many have found the 700 series to represent excellent value. Will you be able to hear the difference from the better grade wood? I can't. Does it matter to you if the 900 series looks a lot prettier? (it sure does look sweet) Are you flush enough to say "Oh what the heck, it's only money, I'll get the 900"?

If you answered no to more than one of these questions, get the 700 and you'll love it.

GSnyde · #6 07-07-2003, 02:52 PM

The difference between 914 and 714 is 200. [smileyface]

I agree with those who say it is basically all cosmetic. The tone of a 914 and a 714 should be the same (leaving aside variations between any two guitars made of the same woods with the same construction).

Bob Womack · #7 07-07-2003, 04:03 PM

Can I assure you that each worker will approach a 300 and a presentation exactly the same? No. But, from the 300 series up, the necks and parts are cut by machine. They are assembled by hand and they all use the same workers, jigs, and glue. Thus, the craftsmanship is roughly the same.

It really comes down to the quality of the tonewoods, both visually and acoustically, and the quality and quantity of the ornamentation. Oh yes, they also grade the neck joints to put the visually prettier ones on the higher series'.

I would love a 900 (old-style, Cindy inlay, fretboard extension). I bought a 700, and it's a great guitar, too.

Bob

larrymac · #8 07-07-2003, 04:40 PM

My $0.02........go for the 700 series. I own 500, 600, 700, 800, K and W based models. My next Taylor will be a custom Z-14 or Z-15 order based on a 900 series. Other than cosmetic appointments, and higher grade wood selection, the sound on the 700 series is the best bargain and price-point in my experience. Given your geographical location, and your questions, the 700 might be the best complimentary choice to go with your 500 series.

Jeff M · #9 07-07-2003, 04:54 PM

While there have been several replies mentioning the higher grade of woods used in the 800/900 series guitars, and suggestions to upgrade the top wood if going with a custom order, it should be noted that Taylor (like other large manufacturers) grades their woods on cosmetics, not tone. There is no guarantee that an upgraded top will sound better than a standard top. It will look more "perfect", but tone is not a factor in the upgrade.

Jim · #10 07-07-2003, 05:48 PM

There is more to grading wood than cosmetics and cosmetics do play a role in how wood will last over time and sound.

If you want a bargain priced rosewood guitar, get the new 400 series "Summer Strummer" limited edition. It is the best bang for the buck. If you can afford to pay more, the 700 series is a step up and worth the money. If you can afford to pay more, then you really should go for the 800 because it is a worthwhile step up from the 700. And if you can afford a 900, especially if you can find one made in 2000 or before when they had breath-taking inlays and that someone out of their mind is willing to part with, you should go for that.

There is not a huge difference in tone, but the more I play high end Taylors, the more I appreciate the small difference. I guess it is kind of like wine. It is all just fermented grape juice and most people can't tell the difference between one cabernet and another, but once you get used to the good stuff you start noticing why it costs more and you become more willing to pay the higher prices for it.

Jeff M · #11 07-07-2003, 06:32 PM

Jim, it is my understanding that Taylor uses cosmetics when grading it's woods, not tone. Most builders grade this way. Small/solo builders generally also go to great lengths to tap tone or otherwise get an impression of how the wood will sound, and make adjustments to the bracing paterns and top thinning on a guitar by guitar basis. Large manufacturers are unable to do this and turn out the number of instruments that they do.

The subject of cosmetics re; tone is an intersting one. I have had this discussion with several luthiers, and the general consensus is that there is very little correlation between perfect, tight grained wood and killer tone. Michael Milliard at Froggy Bottom Guitars believes that, re: adirondac, the better sounding pieces are the LESS visually perfect ones. James Goodall believes, in the case of Koa, that the more visually stunning pieces (more "flamed") actually tend to dampen the sound more. I have heard others say the same about figured mahogany and maple. Frank Ford addresses the issue at his site, believing (in general) that wider grained top woods tend to slightly accentuate bass response, while tighter grained pieces accentuate the higher tones, neither being "better", just different.

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musi...onewoods1.html

gjatkins · #12 07-07-2003, 06:37 PM

I'd say go for the 414 summer limited with rosewood and be done with it

When will we have a chance like this again?

seekingsq · #13 07-08-2003, 04:53 AM

Many thanks to Splatt, Pollajak, TimmyPack, Stuart, GSnyde, Bob Womack, LarryMac, Jeff M, Jim and gjatkins for taking your time to respond.

Previously, I imagine that Taylor factory being such a big manufacturing facility churning out over 100 guitars per day would have separate production lines for specific series. And the higher skilled worker would logically be assigned to the higher number series line.

If I read all your replies correctly, I gather that in fact Taylor factory has one common production line where all series and models are worked on (assembled by hand) by the same set of workers using the same jigs and tools. The consensus is that there is no different in production process between 3xx series upward to 9xx series. That the extra price to pay is for better wood and ornamental inlays. That I will be better off to settle for 7xx (comparing between 7xx vx 9xx) if I am going for the sound only and not interested in cosmetics. Or that I should opt for top wood upgrade to 9xx standard if I believe better wood = better tone.

This would lead me to another question: Does Taylor accept such custom order i.e. for 1 piece of 7xx made with top wood upgraded to 9xx grade? How much is estimated upcharge?

Doulos · #14 07-08-2003, 05:12 AM

if i were u i will go for the highest series
have not heard the sound of a 7 or 9
so can't really say anything but my mindset now is for the HIGHest haha
hehe juz my 2 cents

pollajak · #15 07-08-2003, 07:27 AM

You can order 900 top for a 700. But it will drive the cost up. Taylor provides a lot of upgrading/downgrading options. It incates the costs to change type and grade of woods. However, the information I have is obsolete (3 years old). You can ask the dealer or directly call Taylor to ask them the additional cost to upgrade the top.

I would highly recommend you to stick with the standard 700 top. Difference of sound will not be much immense because of back/side remains.