Share your real world experience on adding complexity early in your learning curve

[Glennwillow]

Every guitar player is different and we do not advance at the same rate towards any kind of complexity in playing. In fact, I would venture to suggest that the majority of guitar players never move towards much complexity in their playing even after 50 years of playing.

I think to be good at anything, especially guitar playing, I think a person needs to be a little obsessed. Most outsiders would see this as a negative -- that is, obsession -- but the reality and the personal costs of getting really good at anything require a certain level of obsession in my view. And I think it's easier when a person is young and has fairly limited outside responsibilities to be obsessed with guitar playing or any other kind of endeavor.

I know I was obsessed for about the first 5-years of playing. I managed to do a good job at my school work (I started at age 16), so I wasn't totally obsessed, but I spent much of my time thinking about the guitar and of course, my girlfriend (now my wife). Fortunately, I had enough energy and brain power left over to cover my school work and be successful there, as well.

It's harder in later life, I think because we have learned not to be so obsessive about new things we take on. If I could apply my passion for the guitar that I had at age 16 to the piano today, I'd be pretty good at the piano within the next year. But I just don't have that passion left in me anymore. Still, I know I'm a nutcase about the guitar and music in general even today.

I would suggest that immersing yourself as much as you can in learning is the key to success. And YouTube has so many free resources that you really have some wonderful advantages in today's world. Also, experiment all you can. It's amazing how much you can learn from your own imagination. Or, from your own mistakes.

- Glenn

[Aspiring]

The other thing that helped me is understanding my personal learning style and finding a teacher that can work with that.

Many music teachers learned by listening and repetition ie training their ear and then picking up more theory later in life. For a lot of us coming in later in life or that may have a more analytical style to learning and don't see it as intuitively, other teaching / learning styles can work better. Trick is figuring out which style suits you best.

I work best by understanding the why of how something is supposed to work (eg theory). I would say the majority in music, particularly those who started young do not learn with that style. That it is to say what you asked for in your post ( the step by step method of how to add what and how long it takes) just doesn't exist as a one size fits all recipe

For figuring out where you need to go next you need to figure out what you are doing differently in your playing from what you want and then find ideas or practice techniques that will help you move forward from there.

[Charlie Bernstein]

PS —

I recently posted the steps I took to learn to play cowboy chords well. They are:

1. Learn the chords of an easy three-chord song.

2. Learn to play them in time, without breaking the rhythm — even if it means just playing the chord once before grabbing the next chord.

3. Learn a steady strum. It can be Rick's or one you make up yourself. What matters is that it's steady. Notice that sideways windshield-wiper motion he's using. It's easy, it sounds good, and you don't get tired.

4. Vary your patterns, and give different beats different emphasis. The idea is to start adding some expression and feeling to the chords.

5. Add songs that teach your more chords, like minors and sevenths.

6. Experiment with picking fingers up and putting fingers down in different places. For instance, play a D chord. Then lift your finger off the first string and play it again. Then put your pinky down on the first string, third fret. Then go back to the original D. You quickly learn what sounds good and what doesn't.

7. Experiment with hitting just one or two or three strings on some strokes — another way to vary it.

8.Find in-between bass notes. For instance, walk up from the low G of a G chord to the low C of a C chord. Or the low E of an E-minor to the low G of a G chord. Pay attention to which notes sound good and which to avoid as you walk up and down.

And you'll want to work on bar chords, probably at the same time. The steps are:

1. Learn the four major-chord positions, thinking of the nut as your forefinger. First position: E chord. / Second: A chord. / Third: G. / Fourth: C.

2. Start using them in songs.

3. Learn variations, like sevenths, minors, and so on.

4. Start using parts of each, like the first three strings, the middle four strings, the lower two strings, the second, third, and fourth strings, and so on.

Does any of that answer your question? Hope so!

[mawmow]

I began to play the guitar with some cowboy chords, added more complex ones
while learning new pieces from fake books, then discovered simple arpeggios and
dived into the fingerstyle bowl while I was learning bass runs as passing tones between chords.
Finally added slide, hammer on and pull off to raise the sauce while exploring delta blues.
Jazz recently brought more triad and double stops experience.

[Charlie Bernstein]

PPS -

Just to keep from getting bored, I also started messing with slide, drop-D, and open tuning early on.

[mr. beaumont]

Lots of advice here...some good...some honestly people not addressing the question at all...

OP, nobody's asked, so I will--where are the single note lines you're playing now coming from? Are you playing scales? Or just hunting and pecking by ear?

[TBman]

One of the biggest reasons I switched from playing with a flat picking strummer that played hybrid occasionally was that I didn't know how to add the melody to what I was doing consistently. Granted, some tunes you can't. After years of playing and then stopping, relearning and stopping cycles that many of us went through over our lives I decided back around 2000 to start to learn finger style.

Some finger style arrangements can be difficult, some are too easy. The OP should find some tunes they like and modify the arrangements as needed.

I think playing tunes/songs that we enjoy is the goal. Complexity or a lack of it is just a side effect of experience and learning.

[Bluenose]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

Every guitar player is different and we do not advance at the same rate towards any kind of complexity in playing. In fact, I would venture to suggest that the majority of guitar players never move towards much complexity in their playing even after 50 years of playing.

I think to be good at anything, especially guitar playing, I think a person needs to be a little obsessed. Most outsiders would see this as a negative -- that is, obsession -- but the reality and the personal costs of getting really good at anything require a certain level of obsession in my view. And I think it's easier when a person is young and has fairly limited outside responsibilities to be obsessed with guitar playing or any other kind of endeavor.

I know I was obsessed for about the first 5-years of playing. I managed to do a good job at my school work (I started at age 16), so I wasn't totally obsessed, but I spent much of my time thinking about the guitar and of course, my girlfriend (now my wife). Fortunately, I had enough energy and brain power left over to cover my school work and be successful there, as well.

It's harder in later life, I think because we have learned not to be so obsessive about new things we take on. If I could apply my passion for the guitar that I had at age 16 to the piano today, I'd be pretty good at the piano within the next year. But I just don't have that passion left in me anymore. Still, I know I'm a nutcase about the guitar and music in general even today.

I would suggest that immersing yourself as much as you can in learning is the key to success. And YouTube has so many free resources that you really have some wonderful advantages in today's world. Also, experiment all you can. It's amazing how much you can learn from your own imagination. Or, from your own mistakes.

- Glenn

This is a great post IMO. Becoming a good guitarist calls for sacrifice of time and effort. I mean who wouldn't want to be a pro guitarist right? Unfortunately for 99.9% of us that weren't born with lots of talent and a great ear it just means you have to put in the time and do the work. I became somewhat obsessed when I was 17 (1971) and I traveled many, many miles and took up jobs like working in parking garages just to be able to get lessons from a real player. Now with the internet you can get world class instruction in the comfort of your home. Even if you never even make a cent playing it is still very rewarding in other different ways. Just remember that close is not good enough, keep working at it until it's perfect.

This is just how I feel about it. Others no doubt have a different opinion.

[The Bard Rocks]

One of the early "breakthroughs" I made was the realization that many, sometimes most, of the notes I wanted to play in the melody were already in the chord I was fingering and all I had to do was learn to add the ones that weren't already there. And this could be done while still keeping the rhythm going.

After that, I learned I didn't have to strum or pick every facet of the rhythm, just enough that a listener would sense what was going on and feel like it was all there.

[H165]

For me, it was the sudden realization I could actually learn to play the opening riffs in Judy Collins' cover of Leonard Cohen's "Suzanne"

There is an outstanding book dealing with exactly this concept:

...and quite a few songs. Here's one of my faves:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNItDggR6c0

[Gs33]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Lots of advice here...some good...some honestly people not addressing the question at all...

OP, nobody's asked, so I will--where are the single note lines you're playing now coming from? Are you playing scales? Or just hunting and pecking by ear?

I can play the mando family a bit so I'm comfortable with fiddle tunes in various places on the guitar neck. You're right about the advice being good, but not for the question. My impression is that the easy path is to add strings at the beginning and end of phrases, which works fine on a mando but muddies melody in other spots. I've watched Skye and Grier add them in measure's 2nd notes, 2nd to last, 3rd to last (etc} and that's interesting, some very clever (power) chords in odd spots. But getting those in there smooth is challenging and I'm stalled out.

[Gs33]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

One of the early "breakthroughs" I made was the realization that many, sometimes most, of the notes I wanted to play in the melody were already in the chord I was fingering and all I had to do was learn to add the ones that weren't already there. And this could be done while still keeping the rhythm going.

After that, I learned I didn't have to strum or pick every facet of the rhythm, just enough that a listener would sense what was going on and feel like it was all there.

This is a good point, I came over from mando, bluegrass so I didn't start with chords or shapes, it's probably not in my brain the same as those who learned guitar chords before anything, thanks.

[Mandobart]

Originally Posted by Gs33

This is a good point, I came over from mando, bluegrass so I didn't start with chords or shapes, it's probably not in my brain the same as those who learned guitar chords before anything, thanks.

I went the opposite direction - first violin/bluegrass fiddle, then guitar, then mandolin. I find with my mandolin playing (nearly 16 years) that what The Bard stated is true there too:

"many, sometimes most, of the notes I wanted to play in the melody were already in the chord I was fingering."

Most of bluegrass mandolin is chords anyway - chopping chords on the off beat. And the melody notes are nearly all there in the chords you're chopping.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Gs33

I can play the mando family a bit so I'm comfortable with fiddle tunes in various places on the guitar neck. You're right about the advice being good, but not for the question. My impression is that the easy path is to add strings at the beginning and end of phrases, which works fine on a mando but muddies melody in other spots. I've watched Skye and Grier add them in measure's 2nd notes, 2nd to last, 3rd to last (etc} and that's interesting, some very clever (power) chords in odd spots. But getting those in there smooth is challenging and I'm stalled out.

Might be helpful to pick a tune and work through it. I come from a jazz background so improvising is my thing--but I haven't spent much time with the music you're doing...I think it'd be fun to remedy that! Come at it from an outsider's perspective...

[Deliberate1]

Originally Posted by Gs33

This is a difficult question to explain... How did you break down the challenge? Thanks.

By mistake, or, coincidentally, or more elegantly put, organically. I am five years in. I mostly play what I write. The songs are born fairly skeletal. But the more I play them, and the more I just play, my fingers, without much help from me, just find different places to go, or find their way on a different path. And, when that happens, the more likely it is to happen again. Sometimes I intend to play one thing, and something totally different comes out because I hit a "wrong" note, which becomes the "right" note. So, I just play, and let serendipity take over. The music I play, and the way it matures over time, tells me when and how I am improving.

Now, I acknowledge that this organic approach may not work for someone totally new to music, someone who is still becoming accustomed to the idea of what sounds "right," in the conventional sense. While I am five years into he guitar, I have been a classical and winds player for nearly sixty years, and am no stranger to improvisation with my horns. I cannot work the guitar like I can my horns, but I still know when something comes out of the guitar that is music. Simply put, I know what sounds good. The rest is "just" mechanical.

Just let it happen. Just play your guitar and listen to what it is telling you. Be bold and inquisitive. The missteps you make last but a heartbeat, and your guitar will bear no grudge.

And have fun, above all else.

David