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  #61  
Old 06-21-2014, 02:31 PM
mattmoo mattmoo is offline
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Yea, my Bourgeois Adi topped OM is warmer than my Bourgeois Redwood topped guitar.

A lot of misconceptions about Adi I think.

I did own one Adi topped Collings that was brash, and cutting, and hard. I sold it to a bluegrass guy. He loves it. Sounds completely different when he plays it.
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  #62  
Old 06-21-2014, 05:31 PM
coloradoman coloradoman is offline
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Adi is vastly superior.

BUT only if played with a Blue Chip pick (unless you REALLY care about tone - tortoise shell, baby!), several years of Tonerite, genuine elephant ivory nut and saddle, Siberian tiger bone bridge pins, lightweight tuners (you don't want too much mass on the headstock), titanium frets with a solid gold core, and never let the guitar have physical contact with your body.
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  #63  
Old 06-21-2014, 05:40 PM
Twelvefret Twelvefret is offline
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Originally Posted by coloradoman View Post
Adi is vastly superior.

BUT only if played with a Blue Chip pick (unless you REALLY care about tone - tortoise shell, baby!), several years of Tonerite, genuine elephant ivory nut and saddle, Siberian tiger bone bridge pins, lightweight tuners (you don't want too much mass on the headstock), titanium frets with a solid gold core, and never let the guitar have physical contact with your body.
Sounds like a religious fetish.
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  #64  
Old 06-21-2014, 09:24 PM
Russ C Russ C is offline
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No tone wood is an upgrade unless you like the result .. or most others think it's an upgrade and you plan to sell it - which you probably will some day.

Truisms like "a good luthier can achieve (whatever)" and "there's overlap between the species" and "good (whatever) will outperform mediocre (whatever)" don't deny that there is usually an identifiable character and behaviour in average examples of different timbers - which is what you'll usually find in shops.

I advise you to collect all the sound descriptors others have used in one half of your open mind and go see if that's what you hear.
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  #65  
Old 06-22-2014, 02:31 AM
reholli reholli is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coloradoman View Post
Adi is vastly superior.

BUT only if played with a Blue Chip pick (unless you REALLY care about tone - tortoise shell, baby!), several years of Tonerite, genuine elephant ivory nut and saddle, Siberian tiger bone bridge pins, lightweight tuners (you don't want too much mass on the headstock), titanium frets with a solid gold core, and never let the guitar have physical contact with your body.
And don't forget (per Gypsyblue): only those who can really play will hear what Adirondack has to offer.

It's hype...as so many tonewood claims (especially those with upcharges) are. My money's on the build and the player, not necessarily in that order.
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  #66  
Old 06-22-2014, 07:06 AM
RoseAdi RoseAdi is offline
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I don't consider adi as an upgrade. I also don't consider any other wood an upgrade, or downgrade, for that matter. I would call it just another 'option'.

If the guitar you really like has an adi top, it's just a question of whether that guitar has the sound you're looking for and whether it is worth the price to you.

I voted with my wallet when I purchased my adi topped Lowden. There was a fairly hefty up-charge for it. But to many, cedar is the quintessential Lowden top wood. For them, adi is not an option they would choose. Hey, it's all good!
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  #67  
Old 06-22-2014, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by riverrummed View Post
I'll say it too...it's not hype.
While I agree that it is not "hype" I will also say that Adirondack is like cedar or a mahogany top. It's not "better", it is simply different. I have owned at least a half dozen adi tops from some very fine builders. I don't have any of them anymore and am not really interested in acquiring another. Now, that sound is not what I look for in a guitar. To answer your question. Yes it is worth the upgrade if that's what you want to hear. But with about anything guitar related, some builders will be able to do a lot more with it than others. FWIW
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  #68  
Old 06-22-2014, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoseAdi View Post
I don't consider adi as an upgrade. I also don't consider any other wood an upgrade, or downgrade, for that matter. I would call it just another 'option'.

If the guitar you really like has an adi top, it's just a question of whether that guitar has the sound you're looking for and whether it is worth the price to you.

I voted with my wallet when I purchased my adi topped Lowden. There was a fairly hefty up-charge for it. But to many, cedar is the quintessential Lowden top wood. For them, adi is not an option they would choose. Hey, it's all good!

Amen! It is all good!
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  #69  
Old 06-22-2014, 09:38 AM
handers handers is offline
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Originally Posted by Edmond View Post
I think you might call it the art of fighting without fighting...
Yeah, I don't understand a style of music where one top wood would be undesirable. Cedar, redwood, sitka, adirondack could all be made into guitars which would be at least adequate for all styles. I could imagine cedar and perhaps redwood would be a bit live and easily overdriven for hard-driving acoustic blues. But adirondack? Not in my experience.

Could you elaborate?

hans
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  #70  
Old 06-22-2014, 09:41 AM
Arthur Blake Arthur Blake is offline
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I am relatively new to this forum - so I hope this type of post is permitted.
I read this about a year ago, and it influenced my decision to purchase an Adirondack topped guitar more than anything else I found.
It was posted elsewhere - may have even been here - if someone recognizes it, let me know.
Seems to cover the entire ground very well: (copied)
~~~~~~~~~
Every rule is meant to be broken, even suppositions that might become so-called general knowledge. Which is why there is really no way to determine in advance if one species of spruce is actually better than the other. You gotta play them and let your ears make the call.

But with that said ...

Many of the guitars I've played with Adirondack tops have been very appealing to me, even though the majority of the instruments I've owned have been Sitka. Which may have just as much to do with the time frames when I was actively shopping, (for most of my life, Red Spruce simply wasn't available for factory guitars), as anything else.

As of now, my favorite guitar is topped with Red Spruce, and none of the guitars I've owned in the past (or currently own) that were/are Sitka can keep up with it. Is this due to primarily to the the type of wood, or is it the bracing, the build quality, the design philosophy of the builder etc? Yes, undoubtedly ... and on all fronts. But without an outstanding piece of wood to begin with, the rest might not be quite as important, IMHO.

I've had Sitka-topped guitars that I was fairly well convinced were exemplary. Beautiful pieces of tonewood, with a sound that could move most folks to tears.

A builder might be able to make you a fine guitar with a pretty piece of wood, for instance, and using their skills, give you something to admire, that will probably sound good enough to satisfy most customers. But with great wood, in the right hands, even if the stuff is a far cry from being highly rated on a cosmetic scale, when it comes to sheer tone, the sky might be the limit.

With this Red Spruce guitar, there are certain aspects of the tone that stand out to me, such as a lack of boominess in the bass, despite the guitar being a big ole dread. Warmth, depth, power - yes, but no mud. Seriously good note articulation - nothing ever gets lost in the mix. Strong fundamentals. More overtones than with my Sitka guitars. A piano-like flow in the sound, with excellent sustain, but not so much that chords run into each other, so muting is minimized.

I can fingerpick on this guitar and produce a round, lyrical tone ... strum with a rich, full tone, or back off towards the bridge, play lightly, and get much more bite without losing the bottom end, or choke up on a pick and chicken pick like I'm playing a Telecaster.

And although I've heard that Red Spruce needs a heavier hand, I don't see that with this guitar. The response is very quick, and I can feel with my fretting hand how little tension is needed to create sound, which allows me to have am excellent range of dynamic control, as it is true enough that the top can also handle extremes in the other direction without becoming messy or over-driven.

I've had some Sitka guitars that were nearly as good in some respects, but not in everything that this one can do.

When I bought it, I got it for one thing -- flatpicking. That's what it seemed to do best, and I was satisfied with that. Cosmetically, it wasn't much to look at, and due to the width of the grain, a few friends wondered why I would buy something that in terms of simply being attractive, kinda wasn't. A plain Jane, more or less, with a top that appeared to be better suited for furniture.

Several years later, with a custom gauge of strings, an action height that is unusually low, compared to guitars I've played in the past, great frets, a heavy pick, better technique, and lots of bonding ... I gradually began to realize that this guitar was nearly wasted by pigeon-holing it as something that was meant only for Bluegrass. It was capable of so much more, and because of it, I actually started making strides as a player in directions unforeseen.

I don't make adjustments around this guitar, to avoid things that it doesn't do well. I've done this with every previous guitar, regardless of the cost or brand name, ever since I first owned a guitar.

But not anymore. It's nearly a bad thing, in a way, as I am not nearly as willing to work around another guitar's specific tonality (or lack of), or adjust to a different action set-up. My wife says that I am now permanently spoiled. She may be right!

For the first, and only time, whatever I'm capable of playing, this guitar can do it, without hesitation. And sometimes, because of that, I find myself playing and reaching for levels of skill that were previously only part of my imagination. You can't get bored with a guitar that can consistently take you *there*. If there is anything I like about the guitar the most, it would be that.

Would this guitar be as impressive if it was Sitka? Maybe. The company has a fine reputation, with what appears to be high levels of quality control, from what other people have said who own something similar.

But would it be different? Obviously, yes. Would it be as good, for my purposes? Something tells me, probably not.
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  #71  
Old 06-22-2014, 06:34 PM
Russ C Russ C is offline
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Arthur, your post made sense to me and it read like you know what you're writing about. I think you described the characteristics of Adi that I said a person could expect to find in most Adi tops and would be well advised to look for when shopping around.

It's in the bass and "clarity" departments that I think fans of other spruces, cedar or mahogany tops may not see eye to eye with those who chose Adi .. without implying we can't like them all.

I wrote recently that I hear solidity and substance in the bass of a good Sitka guitar that I have not yet found an Adi guitar to equal, and for me that foundation in the bass is not negotiable.
My Sitka Martin dread has cello like bass with a controlled bloom over the bottom octave disappearing seamlessly into the mids that compels me to voice chords all over the fretboard just to soak it up.

If Adi has a thinner tone it can help protect against lack of clarity in a poorly voiced guitar - which would be an improvement - but I make the point that it may come at a cost if the guitar does not need that help.

There must be a guitar out there that will give me the great things Adi can do without losing what I love about Sitka. I will not stop looking.
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  #72  
Old 06-22-2014, 06:58 PM
maurerfan maurerfan is offline
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Not just an upgrade .. but essential, period.
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  #73  
Old 06-22-2014, 08:52 PM
00-28 00-28 is offline
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Originally Posted by maurerfan View Post
Not just an upgrade .. but essential, period.
"Not just an upgrade"
You mean there's more?

"...but essential, period."
How? Why wasn't I told this when I bought my guitars? Now I'm not so sure I like my guitars any more.

....Mike
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  #74  
Old 06-22-2014, 09:45 PM
dneal dneal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ C View Post
Arthur, your post made sense to me and it read like you know what you're writing about. I think you described the characteristics of Adi that I said a person could expect to find in most Adi tops and would be well advised to look for when shopping around.

It's in the bass and "clarity" departments that I think fans of other spruces, cedar or mahogany tops may not see eye to eye with those who chose Adi .. without implying we can't like them all.

I wrote recently that I hear solidity and substance in the bass of a good Sitka guitar that I have not yet found an Adi guitar to equal, and for me that foundation in the bass is not negotiable.
My Sitka Martin dread has cello like bass with a controlled bloom over the bottom octave disappearing seamlessly into the mids that compels me to voice chords all over the fretboard just to soak it up.

If Adi has a thinner tone it can help protect against lack of clarity in a poorly voiced guitar - which would be an improvement - but I make the point that it may come at a cost if the guitar does not need that help.

There must be a guitar out there that will give me the great things Adi can do without losing what I love about Sitka. I will not stop looking.
It's not an either / or scenario, and there can be more than one...

I think the point Arthur was making was that Adi isn't limited to a loud dread for flat picking bluegrass (a myth that gets perpetuated), and that his experience with an Adi top was contrary to the stereotypes.

It's certainly not true that Adi is "thin" on the bass (and there's no reason to think it must have more clarity than Sitka). Put some good headphones on and have a listen:




Last edited by dneal; 06-22-2014 at 09:52 PM.
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  #75  
Old 06-23-2014, 02:42 PM
maurerfan maurerfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-28 View Post
"Not just an upgrade"
You mean there's more?

"...but essential, period."
How? Why wasn't I told this when I bought my guitars? Now I'm not so sure I like my guitars any more.

....Mike
Uh Oh ... sounds like an existential dilemma in the making ...
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