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  #106  
Old 03-10-2015, 06:53 PM
Wardo Wardo is offline
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Played an adirondack Martin D16 which was physically very similar to my D18. At the time I actually thought is was a D18 when I took it off the wall in a store. After a few chords I said to the sales guy "this thing has no mid range" and the he mentioned it wasn't a D18 etc. So the difference was noticeable and I didn't like it compared to the sitka top on my D18.

As for whether or not it's a good upgrade it's gonna depend on whether or not you like the sound or even notice a difference.
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  #107  
Old 03-10-2015, 07:51 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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This are McPherson's brief descriptions of the various tone woods they use:

http://mcphersonguitars.com/tonewoods/

Maybe some here might find it interesting.

Tony
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  #108  
Old 03-11-2015, 09:18 PM
D28A1941 D28A1941 is offline
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I think Adirondack or Red Spruce is worth the upgrade - most of the prewar martins were made with it and that is the sound I'm looking for. I am learning flatpicking currently, but if I was learning something else I'd probably just go for Sitka. I think for Dreadnought Size guitars it is worth it. I think Engelmann, Sitka, Cedar, or German spruce are better with OM, 000, 00 sized guitars.
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  #109  
Old 03-11-2015, 10:11 PM
BadLiver BadLiver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GibbyPrague View Post
99% of guitarists, even here on the AGF would not be able to tell difference between same guitar model in Adi or Sitka.

Hence, no, not worth it except for bragging rights.


Agree with this. As a fingerstylist I can't tell a difference. Have an Adi now, used to have Sitka; sounds no different. The main thing is how well you play and coax tones out.
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  #110  
Old 03-11-2015, 10:52 PM
JTFoote JTFoote is offline
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I've had two guitars with Adirondack tops. One, a very expensive, high-end, boutique guitar. The other, about a third of the price of the boutique guitar. Both played extensively. Both excellent guitars, with good balance. Both unusually loud. Both very clean sounding guitars, with precise note separation and articulation, nearly unforgiving in this respect. If pushed, each could become somewhat harsh in the trebles, almost to the point of irritation. The less expensive guitar with a sweeter tone, a tad less cut, and a punchier bass. Both excellent on stage.

But my favorite guitar has been, and still is, an older guitar with a lightly braced, nicely quarter-sawn, heavily silked, very tight-grained Sitka top. Richer, warmer, sweeter. A lusher, more complex sound, with a stronger bottom-end, but with no "mush" in the chords. Thicker trebles and more pronounced mids. Not as loud, and has a wider spatial natural reverb. A very pleasant, musical tone.

All three rosewood guitars, BTW.

Based on this, is Adirondack an upgrade? Or is it just different, and perhaps better suited for different applications and venues? You make the call.

... JT
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  #111  
Old 03-11-2015, 11:14 PM
John Arnold John Arnold is offline
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Harsh trebles or a 'nasal' tone are indications that the guitar is overbuilt. That is common when the maker is experienced with the other spruces, which are not as stiff as red spruce.
Wide-grained red spruce is common today....simply because most of the trees being cut are second growth.
Before the resurgence of red spruce in the late-1980's, second growth spruce was rarely used for instruments. But soon after it became available, it was apparent that wide grain is not necessarily bad....in fact, it can be outstanding when used properly.
Now, you see second growth European spruce ('Carpathian') as a viable alternative.
Only the buyer can decide whether red spruce is worth the extra cost.

Quote:
If Martin used mostly Adirondack on their instruments up until a shortage of availability due to the war is it safe to say that they considered it the superior wood?

I don't know if red spruce was considered "superior" by Martin but it certainly was more accessible.

Martin was processing much of their own wood at the time and red spruce logs came from relatively nearby forests. In the Thirties, the Adirondacks would have been a long day's drive from Nazareth. Other sources in the Appalachians not much more.
Just to set the record straight, Martin did not process their own wood in the 1930's. However, they did contract the processing when it was necessary. CFMIII was quoted as saying that both he and his father preferred red spruce over Sitka for soundboards. That was in spite of the fact that Sitka was readily available in large, thick boards after WWI. Martin did use Sitka for their arch tops, and for bracing. This was for manufacturing reasons.

Quote:
If a good set of Adi costs $300 why is there a $1000 up charge.
If the $1000 is retail, then you must consider that 40% or 50% of that goes to the dealer. And as others have mentioned, there is extra time and labor involved when sourcing red spruce.
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  #112  
Old 03-11-2015, 11:36 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
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JT's experiences with Adirondack spruce mirror my own:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JTFoote View Post
I've had two guitars with Adirondack tops. One, a very expensive, high-end, boutique guitar. The other, about a third of the price of the boutique guitar. Both played extensively. Both excellent guitars, with good balance. Both unusually loud. Both very clean sounding guitars, with precise note separation and articulation, nearly unforgiving in this respect. If pushed, each could become somewhat harsh in the trebles, almost to the point of irritation. The less expensive guitar with a sweeter tone, a tad less cut, and a punchier bass. Both excellent on stage.
JT's experiences with Sitka spruce also mirror my own:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JTFoote View Post
But my favorite guitar has been, and still is, an older guitar with a lightly braced, nicely quarter-sawn, heavily silked, very tight-grained Sitka top. Richer, warmer, sweeter. A lusher, more complex sound, with a stronger bottom-end, but with no "mush" in the chords. Thicker trebles and more pronounced mids. Not as loud, and has a wider spatial natural reverb. A very pleasant, musical tone.

All three rosewood guitars, BTW.
I currently own a bunch of instruments (guitars, mandolins, mountain dulcimers and a McAlister acoustic baritone guitar) with Sitka spruce tops, one guitar with Engelmann spruce, a couple with western red cedar, and one with a Carpathian spruce top. None of the instruments with Adirondack spruce tops that I once owned are still on the premises.

Neither are any of the several Brazilian rosewood instruments I've owned, either.

Gee, why is that? Could it be that those individual instruments with those individual pieces of those much-admired tonewoods didn't work as well for the way I play as I might have wanted?

Nah, that CAN'T be right!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JTFoote View Post
Based on this, is Adirondack an upgrade? Or is it just different, and perhaps better suited for different applications and venues? You make the call.

... JT
I've made mine. I'm not ruling out ever owning guitars with those coveted woods again, but it's not something I spend time dreaming about, either.


Wade Hampton Miller
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