#16
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#17
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Mac (Moderator Emeritus over at UMGF) posted this very useful piece of information compiled with specifics received from Linda, the wonderful employee who buys wood for Martin.
Generally applied wood grades Top Wood: Sitka Spruce and Red Spruce tops have 8 grades based on tightness of grain, straightness, color, degree of quartersawing, silking, internal defects (such as sap pockets, occlusions, etc.) and overall cosmetic appearance: No grade given - 16s and below Grade 1 / 2 - 18s and 21s Grade 3 / 4 - 28s and 35s Grade 5 / 6 - Herringbone and 40s Grade 7 - 41's and 42s Grade 8 - 45s Higher grades can be used on lower models on a discretionary basis depending upon availability. Specific Grades for Vintage, Marquis, GE and Authentic: The Vintage series get Sitka spruce tops - an 18V would get a grade 3/4 top and 28V would get a 5/6 grade top (one grade range higher than the standard model 18 or 28). Authentics, GE's and Marquis get Adirondack red spruce tops - 18's would get a 3/4 grade, 28's would get a 5/6 grade and 40's series would get a 7/8 grade. Back and Side Wood: East Indian Rosewood has 4 grades, based on factors such as grain tightness & straightness, color and cosmetics: Grade 1 - 16's and 15's Grade 2 - 20 and 30 series instruments Grade 3 - Herringbone and Vintage 20 and 30 series instruments Grade 4 - 40 series instruments Madagascar Rosewood has two grades: Grade 2 - is "28-style" grade Grade 4 - is "45-style" grade Non-figured Mahogany has 4 grades based on straightness of grain and other cosmetics: Grade 1 - 15's Grade 2 - 16's Grade 3 - Standard 18's Grade 4 - 18V's, GE's, and A's Figured Mahogany has 2 grades based on amount of figure: Grade 2 - lesser figure Grade 4 - highly figured Koa has 2 grades based on the amount of figure: Grade 2 - 16's and 28's Grade 4 - 40's style instruments Note: Martin does not "tap-test" its wood or otherwise grade according to tone. The above grades reflect cosmetic characteristics only. Martin Laminates Martin's Mahogany laminates are quarter sliced Bigleaf Mahogany faces (outer plies) with a rotary sliced African mahogany core, and the Rosewood laminates are quarter sliced Indian rosewood faces with a rotary sliced African Mahogany core. Many thanks to Linda Wallen-Davis (cfmwoodbuyer) of CFM&Co. for providing this info and to BareCat for consolidating it all so that I didn't have to do the work!! <img src= |
#18
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#19
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I find it interesting that these kind of threads often carry an undercurrent that all expensive guitars are a rip-off. Why of course they don't sound any better than the cheapest models…XYZ company is just over charging for bling!
If you don't want or like "pretty", then don't pay for it. That way you can look down on those who do, knowing you're so much smarter than they are. My $.02 worth, Dave |
#20
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Something else possibly worth mentioning:
For perspective, from someone who was playing Martins back when - the D-18 was a less expensive Martin and primarily bought when someone couldn't yet afford a D-28, back when those were the two primary dreadnought choices. Mahogany, initially, was a cost savings wood. Did you know that the 18's used to be made of rosewood? |
#21
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[QUOTE=kydave;3940643
Did you know that the 18's used to be made of rosewood? [/QUOTE] Sorry, but that's too much cognitive dissonance for me to handle. |
#22
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Scroll to 11:39 and you'll see Martin "candle-ing" the wood. It's an old method (hence the name) that I'm sure is good for QC, but it's not really doing much for tone. Now watch this video of Bruce VanWart at Collings evaluate wood, or scroll to 5:35 where he talks about determining the right thickness for each top. Or watch Dana Bourgeois talk about selecting tops. Martin ain't doing that. |
#23
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Great info!
There's far more info in this thread than I hoped to get, and I'm really impressed. If I may, I'd like to try to sum up. With regard to the big guitar manufacturers:
Sometimes the wood used in higher-ranking models is of a different species than the lower-ranking models. (This might be confined to wood for backs and sides; I don't know.) Manufacture of the differently ranked models is, with the exception of custom shop work, done by the same people. We have conclusive evidence that at least one of the big manufacturers uses a "higher" grade of same-species wood for the higher-ranking models. The grades are based on visual rather than sound criteria; but some of those visual criteria (f.i. closeness of grain, straightness of grain, degree of quarter sawing) may well imply something about the sound qualities of the wood. If so, it seems probable that the higher-ranked models generally sound better because of the woods used. However, it may also be the case that some things which may be desired in the woods (figure, for instance) in some cases could be detrimental to the sound. I should think that since guitar tops generally are not tested by big manufacturers for sound qualities (and what's up with that?), it is entirely possible that a particular example of a lower-end model will sound better than many of the corresponding higher-end models. Bling is kinda cool, and if it's tasteful I like it and think it deserves its price; but inlay don't do diddly for sound. A personal opinion: Wood quality aside, as one comment noted, string choice is fantastically important, and was far, far more important in improving sound in a Guild I have than any of the brace shaving, special-materials saddles and bridges, etc., that I had done. An experimental string change in a $250 used Crafter made it sound much better than a $4400 semi-custom guitar by a very well known builder. Seems a good idea that people diagnose their guitars, enumerate what they like and don't like about the sounds they're getting, and experiment and choose strings that will remedy problems. Many thanks! |
#24
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WayneS keep playing guitars so you can hear what they sound like i have a $300.00 guitar that sounds amazing, wow you need to hear it, it sounds so good you would offer me $400.00 for it, and i wouldn't sell it, but then my Martin D-41 you play that and it make the other seem like a toy
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#25
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Again, when working for Guild back in the 80's it was the same story. Guild didn't test their wood for tonal qualities, but the suppliers they used delivered the necessary product for the price point and sound they were aiming at. This is how a production facility operates. The top of the line Guilds sounded better than the lower grade guitars because the wood was tonally superior. |
#26
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#27
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What is visually appealing is just as subjective as tonally appealing. Some of the best acoustic wood has very dark grain. It sits on shelves and only gets used on dark topped guitars because very few will accept it on their creamy white topped guitars.
Frank Sanns |
#28
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And you know what? I'm entirely cool with that. The top that's on my McAlister acoustic baritone guitar (which is unquestionably one of the finest-sounding instruments I own) was in the discard pile at the Santa Cruz Guitar Company because it has a single band of dark red brown on it. Roy McAlister rescued it because he recognized its tonal potential, and I'm glad he did. So darker-than-average spruce tops are FINE with me! Wade Hampton Miller Last edited by Wade Hampton; 05-05-2014 at 09:43 PM. |
#29
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When I traded up from a Taylor 114ce to a 314ce, I noticed the top was "prettier", although both guitars had Sitka spruce tops. I sent a question about this to "Ask Bob" at Taylor guitars, and he confirmed, in an issue of Wood & Steel, that the higher up you go in Taylor's numbering scheme, the better grade of same-type woods you get.
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Acoustic: Taylor 314ce Taylor Mini-e Koa Plus Maton EBG808 Alvarez AP66SB Yamaha LL16R A.R.E. Fishman Loudbox Mini Electric: 1966 Fender Super Reverb 2016 Fender Champion 40 1969 Fender Thinline Tele 2015 Epiphone ES-339 Pro 2016 Fender MIA American Standard Strat 2019 Fender MIM Roadhouse Strat |
#30
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All this theorizing, if less expensive guitars sound better than expensive guitars because of the wood,
I know an easier way, play the darn thing and find out H |