Rosewood vs. Walnut B&S for Cedar Lowden

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Jimi2

I played a Cedar/Rosewood Lowden O25 at the Music Emporium and it was probably the best sounding guitar I’ve ever played - it had a unique, airy, open tone to it. I know Lowden often pairs Walnut with Cedar as well, though I haven’t played this combination. Can anyone comment on the difference between Rosewood and Walnut for these guitars?

Hi Jimi2
I've played a few great Walnut guitars and they trend brighter than Rosewood.

[abn556]

I don’t think Walnut has the harmonic richness and overtones that Rosewood has. Not that it doesn’t sound good, but its definitely quite different sounding than EIR as an example. It is a very good looking wood though. I’ve seen some really good looking backs on Walnut guitars. Wildwood had some Custom Shop 000-28s a while back with Walnut backs that were beautiful.

[Jimi2]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Jimi2
I've played a few great Walnut guitars and they trend brighter than Rosewood.

Thanks, that’s good to know. I think I want to limit the brightness on this guitar. So maybe Rosewood then. Additional richness would be good too. I’m exclusively a fingerpicker on acoustics, and I’m often trying to tame harsh high end on my other guitars.

I think another visit to the Music Emporium is in the cards, so I can play that O25 again.

[TheGITM]

Originally Posted by Jimi2

Thanks, that’s good to know. I think I want to limit the brightness on this guitar. So maybe Rosewood then. Additional richness would be good too. I’m exclusively a fingerpicker on acoustics, and I’m often trying to tame harsh high end on my other guitars.

I think another visit to the Music Emporium is in the cards, so I can play that O25 again.

So, Walnut is by no means 'bright' in tone. If anything, it's slightly brighter than Mahogany, but definitely more 'warm' and 'punchy' in the mids.

[Bowie]

There's a couple things you don't want to overlook here. First being that the top is the more important factor and you are going to be getting a lot of overtones from the top. Adding and overtone heavy back can sometimes have a negative effect when it comes to clarity. Walnut isn't adding brightness so much as rosewood is taking it away by thickening up the lows and mids. I've found EIR can often make a warm sounding top too cloudy and dark for my personal tastes.

What you may think of rosewood when paired with spruce isn't going to parallel here, as the cedar top is already going to be contributing more overtones and "warmth" than the rosewood back of a rosewood/spruce guitar. So, I'd recommend considering if it's possible the guitar will be too dark or muddy sounding for you. If that's not a worry, they rosewood may be your ticket. I personally steer clear of such combos.

[Jimi2]

Originally Posted by Bowie

There's a couple things you don't want to overlook here. First being that the top is the more important factor and you are going to be getting a lot of overtones from the top. Adding and overtone heavy back can sometimes have a negative effect when it comes to clarity. Walnut isn't adding brightness so much as rosewood is taking it away by thickening up the lows and mids. I've found EIR can often make a warm sounding top too cloudy and dark for my personal tastes.

What you may think of rosewood when paired with spruce isn't going to parallel here, as the cedar top is already going to be contributing more overtones and "warmth" than the rosewood back of a rosewood/spruce guitar. So, I'd recommend considering if it's possible the guitar will be too dark or muddy sounding for you. If that's not a worry, they rosewood may be your ticket. I personally steer clear of such combos.

Thanks. That makes sense; this is all so subjective though. I don’t remember that O25 as being overly dark or muddy, but Im going to try to go and play it again on Wednesday hopefully.

My other points of comparison are a spruce/walnut O50 and that F23; I actually bought the F23 used but have been struggling with a resonance issue, so I’m likely returning it. The O50 was lovely but tended slightly to a harsh high end that I get sometimes with my artificial nails; sometimes flat picking sounds good, but my nails sound scratchy despite polishing. The F23 doesn’t sound overly bright at all, but it kinda lacks sustain sometimes. Not sure if that’s down to the woods or an idiosyncrasy of the guitar.

[Rosette]

Awhile back I either read or saw a video of George Lowden talking about the O model and how he designed or braced it specifically to emphasize treble frequencies as he knew the large body size would naturally accentuate lower frequencies and he wanted to balance that. And that's what I hear in my O25...the trebles are clear and strong despite the deep bass.

For my playing, which is mostly fingerstyle, I like the extra bass of rosewood for the same reasons Glennwillow mentions above.

I'd have a hard time deciding between the 23 or 25 if ordering a custom model. I like both, but the 23 sounds dryer to me, the 25 sounds rounder and more lush but they both have something distinctively Lowden about them.

[Jwills57]

First great guitar I ever bought was a Lowden 0-25, basically Lowden's flagship model. East Indian Rosewood-Wester Red Cedar. I played the Walnut version of this guitar, which sounded great, too, don't get me wrong, but didn't have the horsepower of the rosewood, at least to my ears. Lowden's rosewood-cedar models are just something else altogether, a lot different than the standard American Martin-inspired guitars. If I were buying, I'd go with the O-25. Can't go wrong there.

[RADJJD]

Engineering studies from MIT, CalTech, & various individual industry "Experts" profer that 90+ % of the sound is produced by the soundboard, the back contributes very little other than structural integrity & aesthetic value, & the same for the sides & neck. The string contribution varies by type & size, of course.

I have personally heard & actually played a custom built cedar / mahogany guitar with the back off, & I agree with those assessments albeit with my amateur, aging hearing.

If appearance were the deciding factor, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" seems to fit with guitars, too.

I am a player, not a collector

[TBman]

A Lowden is going to sound like a Lowden, a Taylor, a Taylor, etc. etc. The tonewoods tale is just that, a tale to sell guitars. The builder has the greatest impact on the tone of the guitar. The woods used are a distant second.

[Rosette]

While the builder makes a difference and most of the sound might come from the top, it’s not plausible at all that the back and side woods makes no difference.

I’m never really sure why when someone on the forum is wondering about wood choices there’s always someone telling them it doesn’t matter, it’s just the builder that matters.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Rosette

While the builder makes a difference and most of the sound might come from the top, it’s not plausible at all that the back and side woods makes no difference.

I’m never really sure why when someone on the forum is wondering about wood choices there’s always someone telling them it doesn’t matter, it’s just the builder that matters.

Because after you have owned more than a few guitars you start to figure things out.

[Rudy4]

When I auditioned Lowdens to purchase I settled on a 023c walnut / cedar.

If you can't "hear" that 10% that the side and back woods contribute to the overall sound of the instrument then you might as well buy an Ovation.

[Rosette]

Originally Posted by TBman

Because after you have owned more than a few guitars you start to figure things out.

I’ve owned more than a few guitars myself, so I’m not sure what you’re talking about with “figuring it out”.

An 0-23 doesn’t sound identical to an O-25 even though they both sound like Lowdens - and the only thing different about them is the back/side woods.

[TBman]

I have 2 rosewood guitars (Pellerin and Avalon), a walnut (McIlroy) and a mohagany (Martin). They all sound different.

When I had 3 spruce/mohagany guitars - Larrivee, Gibson and Martin, they all sounded completely different. My two rosewood guitars - Pellerin and Avalon - completely different.

Now if you have two guitars of the same design, same builder, but different back and sides then I'm sure you would hear a difference, but I have never played any back to back to confirm.

People just get annoyed when told something that is contrary to their own truths, myself included.

The question of tone woods is the guitar owners version of "Does this dress make me look fat?" You have to watch how you answer