Don't trust yourself!

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by Gypsyblue

That's the way I feel about it as well.

For me, it's all about how the guitar feels and sounds to me...that's #1.

And no one knows that except me.

At the same time, you have to wonder if unpredictable hearing does not, at least in part, fire some of the compulsive buying and selling that goes on here and throughout the acoustic guitar world. When people say 'I never thought I'd be letting this one go,' in the classifieds, I believe them. There probably was a time when they swore that guitar was the best thing since soft-ply toilet paper, and yet here they are, ready to kiss goodbye to it and nominate a new, young pretender as the object of their musical desires. My guess is that in some cases, they're actually hearing the guitar differently, less favorably, and this sets off the futile sell-and-buy routine.

[jmjohnson]

I have had a few occasions where my perception did a complete 180.

One involved my taking a break after A/Bing a guitar i thought I wanted against several others. I think i became overloaded and had to rest my ears. At 1st I didnt think much but then I was sold.

One involved just giving a good 2nd listen to a guitar I originally discounted (when my 1st choice had an issue)...what a sweet and lucky surprise.

Just recently, when A/Bing 2 specific guitars, I needed to have a bit of background music to hear what I wasnt hearing originally...one definitely sounded better then.

Of course i did have a time where I eventually found the best guitar in the shop (and best I would own), and knew it at 1st strum...and I just had to have it. Worth a major trade to get it too.


I think we need to learn to listen, to pick out the things we like once we understand what that is. Its easy to get excited about something new and different. FWIW I tend to trust now that I will generally like RW better then mahogony,

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by talkgtr

With all respect what your story tells me is to not trust your ears. I'm good with mine.

Yeah, I think I feel the same way. I keep going back to my "lesser" guitars and they aren't getting any better. Lol....
But I can understand growing to appreciate "different" sounding guitars.

[Pippin]

Originally Posted by ikravchik

This is a post about the subjectivity of sound perception.

I remember walking into Hilo Guitars and Ukeleles a while back, playing their Taylor K14ce and thinking that it's one of the better guitars I've ever heard. So I started looking for a Koa guitar, did a bunch of research and was contemplating buying one. Well, recently I went there again and played that same K14ce. It sounded OK, puzzled I picked up a 514ce and it sounded a lot better, then I went for an 814ce (old one) it sounded even better still! (keep in mind I'm not a rosewood fan)

I left the store thinking about how fleeting the perception of good sound is. In other words it seems that there's no one IDEAL guitar, just a bunch of different instruments that will sound BEST to you on a particular day.

Importantly the strings got older. And my guitars can sound quite different under the influence of humidity change, and guitars got played-in (or played-out if that's possible at all?)...

And one more important factor: the player - how consistent is our playing?

[devellis]

I think there's more involved than just trusting your perceptions. It's also knowing your tastes and managing the excitement of a potential guitar purchase.

It's kind of like buying a house. If at all possible, never commit based on a single visit. I remember the couple of times my wife and I have bought houses, seeing something that looked pretty nice the first time and deciding ti wouldn't work well after a second visit. The ones that are even more appealing the second time than the first -- be it a house or a guitar -- are the ones that seem to hold their allure over time.

Having bought more guitars than houses, I've gotten better at knowing my tastes and managing the excitement of getting a new guitar. So I can usually trust my perceptions reasonably well. But a brief cool-down period is still probably not a bad idea.

[zhunter]

What do you hear?

hunter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0#t=96

[Psalad]

You absolutely cannot trust your own perception. Period. Do some research in bias and prepare to be astounded. Humans have an extremely difficult time maintaining objectivity.

Where does that leave us? Simple, the mistake is to think you are making a decision that is free of bias. If it's a decision that requires true objectivity, see if there is an existing method to test your bias. Double blind testing. Recording.

If not, I think we just make our decision with our eyes open knowing true objectivity is impossible. In the case of a guitar, we buy them and sell them I suppose.

For those who think their ears are better... Your ears might be better but your brain is the same as everyone else's... Highly subjective to bias. comparing two instruments in two different rooms is difficult enough, add in the passage of time and different days and it would be extremely difficult for any of us to make a meaningful choice.

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by ikravchik

This is a post about the subjectivity of sound perception...

I think this is a good perception. Sales folks know this and build listening rooms that make speakers and guitars sound as good as possible.

I left the store thinking about how fleeting the perception of good sound is. In other words it seems that there's no one IDEAL guitar, just a bunch of different instruments that will sound BEST to you on a particular day.

The bold part strikes me as absolutely true. Perception changes based upon context. I can't tell you how many times as a recording engineer that I've dealt with a "killer" guitar sound that doesn't work in a mix. The challenge is to develop your ability to perceive which guitar works for which application!

Bob

[HHP]

Originally Posted by Psalad

You absolutely cannot trust your own perception. Period. Do some research in bias and prepare to be astounded. Humans have an extremely difficult time maintaining objectivity.

Where does that leave us? Simple, the mistake is to think you are making a decision that is free of bias. If it's a decision that requires true objectivity, see if there is an existing method to test your bias. Double blind testing. Recording.

If not, I think we just make our decision with our eyes open knowing true objectivity is impossible. In the case of a guitar, we buy them and sell them I suppose.

I wouldn't underestimate the value of satisfying your bias.

[stephenT]

Previewing acoustic guitars, or banjos or whatever stringed instrument in a room full of acoustic instruments can easily contribute to incorrect perceptions about a specific instrument. Also some stores will tune their guitars down a half step (GC) which can certainly add to incorrect assumptions.

I'd say don't trust the room, try to eliminate variables, tune up the instrument and preview it in a smaller room.

[Doug Young]

Perception is definitely a tricky thing (That video is fascinating!). Fran Guidry's been pretty evangelical on AGF about trying to alert people to the foibles of our hearing, usually with respect to recording, and he seems to have a pretty hard time getting people to buy it, because we don't want to think we're flawed :-). I think you have to trust your senses because it's all we have, but at the same time, you have to not do it blindly, so there has to be some qualifications made. We have to understand our weaknesses so we can accept the input we hear, but not just leap to conclusions without understanding that our sensors might just be a bit inaccurate.

For example, a while back Gryphon had a used OM28LJ, and I played it and was impressed by how much bass response it had. The guitar seemed exceptionally warm and rich sounding. I have an OM28LJB (Brazilian) so I know the guitar, and the sound I heard at Gryphon was "better" than what I was used to. But I had to wonder how much was the guitar and how much was the room, and how much was my imagination. Sound tends to be relative. So I went home and brought mine back so I could do an A/B compare. I preferred mine - and it was even warmer and fuller than the one for sale. So I was being influenced by the room acoustics. Does that mean I was "wrong"? No, I'd say I heard what I heard, and their guitar sounded really good in that room. Maybe their guitar, in their room even sounded better than my guitar in my room. But eliminate the variables of the room acoustics, my memory of sounds over time, etc, and play them back to back in the same room and I was able to calibrate my hearing and correct my conclusion. I also know my impression of my own guitars changes day to day, so who knows, I could have gone back the next day and again done an A/B and decided I liked theirs better than mine on that day, in that room, on some specific song I played. A good reason to have more than one guitar!

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by HHP

I wouldn't underestimate the value of satisfying your bias.

I think the point is that even your bias is unpredictable.

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by Psalad

You absolutely cannot trust your own perception. Period. Do some research in bias and prepare to be astounded. Humans have an extremely difficult time maintaining objectivity.

This may be true for some but not for all. At least to some degree (sorry Psalad, but absolute statements get me going).

Seems to me that the input to our brains comes from our five senses. And all five inputs are received by the brain simultaneously. At that point we produce an output in the form of response, be it emotionally, physically, or a combination of the two (I know it may be a bit deeper than this but hopefully you get the point). And all five senses actually have a say in how we perceive sound (with our hearing being the dominant factor, of course). The trick with such things as evaluating guitars and sound (at least for me) is being consistent with our approach to the matter. And that comes with experience and the ability to concentrate.

Any time I pick up a guitar I approach it in the same fashion (how it looks, my mood, how I will play it, how I will listen to it, how it feels, etc.). Basically, I turn down the focus on the emotions that have been formed by four of my senses (their input), and turn up the focus on my sense of hearing. This is why blind people hear more ambient sound than those of us with sight. They can concentrate more on their hearing without sight having a say in the matter. I wasn't always able to do this and made quite a few mistakes in the past. But I'm getting better at it all the time. Having been in repair/restoration is definitely helpful in this regard. It has helped with my objectivity. Also, I cannot be exactly the same every time I pick up an instrument but I can refine my process greatly.

So I'm in the camp of "trusting what I hear". It may not work all of the time but it can be improved with experience, concentration, and technique. At least, for me. As far as knowing "the one" when I hear it, that's a different matter altogether. That would take personal time with the instrument.

[james reese]

When I purchased my current best instrument I was a novice human of 21 years. I compared several of the same brand(Martin) old and new, and a few others. I returned to the shop where I had seen two instruments -D28 and D35-They both spoke to me in a loud voice which was missing from the others- and chose one based on my undeveloped sensibilities- and got lucky!

[joeguam]

Originally Posted by Russ C

Different moods, evolving taste and perception, different background noises and acoustics and different jobs to do make the idea of 1 ultimate guitar an impossibility.

I believe that this is one of the greatest statements ever made on AGF.
Now if someone could just help me convince my wife of this same notion that would be awesome.

Originally Posted by zhunter

What do you hear?

hunter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0#t=96

This has got to be one of the most fantastic YT videos I've seen in a long time, thanks for posting.