Factory made guitars VS High-end Luthier made guitars !!!!!

[wisedennis]

Have you ever played any “Factory-made guitar”, which can beat or get very close to “High-end Luthier-made” guitars in terms of playability, tone and volume?

If yes, what are they?

[cliff_the_stiff]

Originally Posted by wisedennis

Have you ever played any “Factory-made guitar”, which can beat or get very close to “High-end Luthier-made” guitars in terms of playability, tone and volume?

If yes, what are they?

Higher end makers such as Lowden, Avalon, from Ireland, Paco Castillo from Spain.
Martin 35, 36, 40, or 41 models.
Old Robert Taylor Taylors-
Collings
Goodall
Santa Cruz GC
Are the USA builders that come to mind.

[tbeltrans]

Taylor Builder's Edition...

Tony

[gr81dorn]

Incendiary topic, sure to cause quite a lively discussion. I’ll just tee up this nugget...

Not all factories are created equal and not all “high end” luthiers are, either. Many of the folks I suspect you’re referring to are making guitars using all the same processes (including CNC machines) as a big factory...just making less guitars and to make the economics work, they make nicer, more expensive ones. Are they better? I’ve had a lot pretty outstanding factory built guitars and some real clunkers, too....the same thing can be said about the boutique stuff.

Ultimately, I’ll just posit that you can’t really compare cuz they’re not all that often building them same thing. If they are (think “ big factory name here” custom shop) they’re probably taking as much care and attention and time as the high end small shop and I think the results are as likely to be great out of either place....but it’s always gonna be apples to oranges just by nature of the business models.

[tbeltrans]

I suspect that many answers here are generalizing as I did about the Taylor Builder's Edition line. Otherwise, there would simply be too many variables to even have such a discussion. I have had my share of boutique guitars and, to me, I agree that not all are created equal. If anything, there is certainly a consistency in quality with Taylor's factory operation. So I am just looking at how good my Builder's Edition Taylors are and considering the good among the boutique guitars I have owned.

Tony

[zmf]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

Taylor Builder's Edition...

What's special about Builder's Editions as opposed to other Taylors? Not a rhetorical question -- I really don't know. Do they get special attention?

[RP]

If the OP were strictly referring to tonal qualities, a big factor would be who's doing the playing and assessing. We have a number of AGF members who can hear, feel and appreciate the nuances of a finely constructed handbuilt guitar, but I'm not one of the them. At lower price points I can certainly do that but as the prices go to say $5,000 and higher, the differences get more subtle, and not every acoustic guitar player can pick up on those subtleties....

[wisedennis]

Really wanted to hear some sharing and opinions on this topic



Thanks for the input!

Originally Posted by gr81dorn

Incendiary topic, sure to cause quite a lively discussion. I’ll just tee up this nugget...

Not all factories are created equal and not all “high end” luthiers are, either. Many of the folks I suspect you’re referring to are making guitars using all the same processes (including CNC machines) as a big factory...just making less guitars and to make the economics work, they make nicer, more expensive ones. Are they better? I’ve had a lot pretty outstanding factory built guitars and some real clunkers, too....the same thing can be said about the boutique stuff.

Ultimately, I’ll just posit that you can’t really compare cuz they’re not all that often building them same thing. If they are (think “ big factory name here” custom shop) they’re probably taking as much care and attention and time as the high end small shop and I think the results are as likely to be great out of either place....but it’s always gonna be apples to oranges just by nature of the business models.

[Dbone]

Just took delivery of one.

Yamaha LL56.

This thing is blowing my mind.

[cliff_the_stiff]

Originally Posted by zmf

What's special about Builder's Editions as opposed to other Taylors? Not a rhetorical question -- I really don't know. Do they get special attention?

Someone who’s got more time with one may know better-
I think the BE models test out, or employ tested features like an armrest, or pretty custom work. You get a lot of choice. You can have a soundhole in the cutout. I thought that V-class began as an option for the BE- trickledown to the rest of the line eventually.

In my time with Taylors, I have yet to find one that I would compare to an Avalon, Lowden, McIlroy, Collings, or Santa Cruz, from fit and finish perspective.
As wonderful as they are, and they are very, very good- I don’t align them with boutique builder quality/ character/ finish.
Doesn’t stop me from playing and loving them every day though.

Well the worst neck joint I ever saw was on a "high-end luthier made guitar" at the Montreal Guitar Show years ago. Looked like it was shaped with dull hacksaw in the dark. Anyhoo, I've played some nice ones (David Wren comes to mind) but I prefer what I have. I must have a tin ear.

[gr81dorn]

Originally Posted by zmf

What's special about Builder's Editions as opposed to other Taylors? Not a rhetorical question -- I really don't know. Do they get special attention?

They do things differently than the standard line which is built with hardly any variation and options. They build them in the same place, same tools and equipment and people as far as I know and just make smaller batches with different features. They are more expensive because they forgo the efficiency in favor of the special changes to make them and change the features that make them different from what makes the main line quintessentially “Taylor”

[Rosewood99]

Not yet!!!!!!!

[zmf]

Originally Posted by cliff_the_stiff

I think the BE models test out, or employ tested features like an armrest, or pretty custom work.

Originally Posted by gr81dorn

They build them in the same place, same tools and equipment and people as far as I know and just make smaller batches with different features.

Thanks.

So no special attention to tops or bracing that might enhance tone or responsiveness.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by zmf

What's special about Builder's Editions as opposed to other Taylors? Not a rhetorical question -- I really don't know. Do they get special attention?

I can't speak to earlier years, and I don't know how long the Builder's Edition has been in production. Apparently, these are considered a bit like the Director's Cut of a movie. Andy Powers apparently puts extra goodies into the Builder's Edition series.

To me, they are just smoother all around, maybe a bit more "finished". Think Toyota vs Lexus, the same car essentially but "more better". They have rounded edges, the cut-away is designed for much easier reach to the higher frets. At least the model I have, has a really nice inlay in the fretboard with the overall effect of the guitar being an understated subtle "bling", rather than being garish. I am not sure that there are others in the Taylor line with the combination of koa back and sides with a torrified spruce top. I particularly like the balanced sound, where many people seem to like a big bass just as most do like a big "boom boom" in their music these days.

What I do know as a player is that as nice as I think Taylor guitars are overall, the Builder's Editions that I have played are that much nicer, more "finished" somehow.

As for the guitars getting special attention, I honestly don't know. I have heard conflicting stories as to whether the high end Taylors are built by a special crew or just on the main factory floor like everything else. I would have to take the factory tour to see for myself, but I doubt that will happen since it isn't a priority. I do want to take the McPherson factory tour since they are only about a 90 minute drive from me.

To me, a well executed boutique guitar is a standard to meet, and I think the Builder's Edition approaches that in at least some cases (i.e. there are boutique guitars that are not quite up to the mark and others that surpass it). That said, I have seen many fine examples of Martin that I feel approach a good boutique instrument. I have seen some boutique guitars that I thought were not up to the quality standards of Martin or Taylor too.

So I think it is a bit more involved with more variables than a blanket statement could do justice to. One thing a factory has going for it is consistency if they have control of their processes. A boutique builder, though, can deal with different pieces of wood according to that piece of wood, so that is an advantage if the builder has the skill to do so.

I also own a Huss & Dalton 00, that is a really nice guitar and I believe that at least some here might say it is considered "boutique" since it is a small shop. Comparing my Taylor Builder's Edition K14ce to it, I don't see either lacking. I have owned other guitars that might be considered boutique, such as a McPherson 3.5 that had quilted maple back and sides and spruce top, a William Kelday 000, a 1996 Collings 0003 that had purchased new, and a few others that I ultimately moved on for various reasons.

What is special to me about the Huss & Dalton is that it is essentially a steel string version of a classical guitar - 00 12 fret with a short scale (many classical guitars don't have that though), a 1 7/8" nut (1 3/4" string spacing e to E) and 2 5/16" string spacing at the saddle. Most (if not all) of the standard Huss & Dalton 00 12 fret models have a 1 3/4" nut like many acoustic guitars do these days. I think mine is probably custom in that regard. I bought it used, so was not involved in the initial order and purchase.

At this point though, I am really liking my McPherson Sable and Touring carbon fiber guitars. The Sable plays just like a Taylor (which are known for being easy on the hands), and I am seriously considering going all carbon fiber at some point. To do that, I don't need to buy anything, but instead sell nearly everything.

I don't know if this happens to others, but for some time I had a real hankering to own boutique guitars. I don't anymore. That does not mean anything to me, but playability does.

Also, I really appreciate the fact that the McPherson carbon fiber guitars are, to me, no longer a compromise against wood instruments and require no maintenance except the occasional string change. I like the strings that my Taylor shipped with (Elixir HD Light Phosphor Bronze Nanoweb) and am now using those on my McPhersons too. Those strings seem to last a very long time for me, but then so do non-coated strings since I don't seem to have problems with my hands exuding weird chemicals on the strings. From what I read, Andy Powers worked with Elixir to come up with that combination of light gauge bass strings and medium gauge treble strings for the Taylor product line. For me, it is a winning combination.

Tony