Bluegrass Rhythm Etiquette

[junkyard]

When playing rhythm in a bluegrass song, the Flatt run is a common tool used at the end of a verse or chorus. I use them as fills sometimes and often as a way to resolve my lead break. My question would be when playing rhythm while another instrument is taking a lead (mandolin, fiddle, etc.), is there a common rule of thumb about using a Flatt run? Does throwing one in get in the way of the other person's lead, sound cluttered, etc.?

I play with a good group of guys and there hasn't been a point of contention over this, but it was more of a curiousity that has been in the back of my mind.

[Silly Moustache]

Despite bluegrass being originally an improvised music, most bands will have pretty carefully devised arrangements nowadays.

I have one old frind who tells me that I put too much into my rhythm - bass runs etc., and he's probably right - if i was some-one else, but I'm me, and I have (over many many) years developed my own style - like Lester did, in fact like Earl did, and Bill, and so many others.

The crucial thing is not to step on any-one else's toes, and to be sympathetic to whoever is soloing (as I'm usually the lead singer - I can be brutal with the vocalist).

The more you work with your band musicians, the more you learn where they may leave a beat that you can fill with a lick, and where it isn't helpful.

In a trio that I have I've been working with the mando player for so long that we both know what each other is going to do better than we do...if you understand.

Play your style but ALWAYS be considerate to who is leading, and others who may be filling (fiddle players are the worst culprits!)

BTW - it really helps to look and listen to what your band members are doing - it looks good and works well.

[Blueser100]

I don't think there is anything wrong with doing a bass run here and then while playing rhythm. The only caveat is don't overdo it and most importantly pay attention to what others are playing. If others are doing a lot of runs, that is your cue to hang back and simply provide a steady beat. Conversely, if everyone is just strumming along or doing boom-chucks then the well-placed run would add to the context.

[Uncle R.]

During someone else's lead, your job is to help them sound good. That's where your focus should be, that should be your mind set. A rock-solid rhythm background with maybe the slightest bit of fill around the edges is typical and appropriate for bluegrass guitar during someone else's lead.
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Be careful not to overdo it - that's a common mistake of a sophomore level bluegrass musician. Understandably proud of their increasing ability, they can't resist showing their talents to the world - constantly. It does nothing for the overall group sound and is annoying and unfair to the other musicians.
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The fact that you're wondering if it's too much strongly implies that it IS too much. When in doubt - don't.
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Uncle R.

[stephenT]

I think it's important to stay out of the way of the singer while he's singing and the soloist when he/she is taking a ride.

While either of those events are happening it's everyone else's job to support, not interfere and take the spotlight away from the soloist.

There's a lot to be said for restraint.

[pgilmor]

I've been to a bluegrass jam exactly twice. At the first one, they complained that I wasn't doing enough with rhythm runs, at the second they complained that I was using some. They just wanted full chords. For some reason, I doubt there will be a third time.

I've come to find it really depends who you are playing with.

[ecguitar44]

Just be tasteful...and you'll be fine.

Don't ask me to define tasteful though.

[Misifus]

If the lead player has reached the end of a phrase, or is taking a pause, that's a great spot for a Flatt run. I would try to avoid walking on his hot licks, however.

Raf

[DesertTwang]

Originally Posted by pgilmor

I've been to a bluegrass jam exactly twice. At the first one, they complained that I wasn't doing enough with rhythm runs, at the second they complained that I was using some. They just wanted full chords. For some reason, I doubt there will be a third time.

I've come to find it really depends who you are playing with.

Agreed. Bluegrass is most of what I play, and my take on it is that if I were in an environment that was super-particular about when and how anyone plays fill licks, my question to them would be, "So if we're that serious, how come there is more than one guitar - or two at most - in this ensemble to begin with?"

Here is how I look at it: If you want to be a serious bluegrass band, you won't have that issue arise because there will only be one guitar - maybe two - anyway. Therefore, I consider any bluegrass jam where there is a bunch of guitars informal enough to play whatever fill licks I - and others - like. Of course I don't overdo it. As many others have said, it's all about restraint and taste.

[DesertTwang]

Originally Posted by Misifus

I would try to avoid walking on his hot licks, however.

Raf

Yup. Exactly. That.

[Mtn Man]

There’s no hard and fast rules here and there are a lot of different styles of rhythm guitar in Bluegrass. I’ll throw a couple things out there that might help you.

First, rhythm isn’t just strumming chords and bass runs. It’s providing whatever backup the song needs at that particular moment, which varies depending on tempo, soloist, key, song, etc. Sometimes one of the instruments will rip off a hot lead break underneath the vocals and it works really well. It’s usually the mandolin that does this but the banjo, fiddle, and guitar will also. Done right, it's an AWESOME effect. Bryan Sutton is one of the few guitar players I've heard pull it off.

Here’s a rule of thumb. When the banjo or mandolin is playing, the guitar should play a more driving rhythm. The reason for this is that the guitar, banjo, and mandolin occupy very similar sonic territory (both in pitch and style) and playing both at the same time will conflict. During a fiddle, dobro, or vocal break, however, the guitar backup can get a little fancier because the guitar doesn’t conflict as much with the more “vocal” style instruments. So a nice crosspicked backup or some fancy bass walks or even some fills can really complement these.

I tell everyone, the first step is to listen to as much music as you can. Actively listen to what the guitar does, and when they throw bass runs in there and when they don’t, and who they're backing up at the time. The more you listen, the more it’ll be in your head, and the more you’ll be instinctively inclined to do the right thing. There’s no rule book, but we all know the difference between something that sounds “right” and doesn’t.

As a band coach, I’ve found good Bluegrass rhythm to be one of the most challenging things I’ve ever tackled. We hold ourselves to a professional standard and it’s not paint by numbers by any means.

[AX17609]

The key to bluegrass rhythm on a guitar is rhythm. Leave the snazzy runs for your solos.

[Aaron Smith]

I think for any style I play, bluegrass included, my rule of thumb is: When in doubt, play less.

[Mtn Man]

Here are a couple videos to illustrate. First is one of my favorite rhythm videos. I think this is some of the best Bluegrass rhythm I've ever heard. It's on a fiddle tune but notice how tastefully Clay slides his bass runs in there, and how it adds the perfect counter to what the mandolin is playing. I could watch this all day.



Now here's a video of my son and his band on a fairly high octane vocal number. Nick has developed into a strong rhythm player. He wasn't mic'd very well here, but notice how he keeps things basic during the banjo kickoff and break, and less so during the vocals and fiddle break. That's because the banjo does a lot of "guitar-esque" runs and his bass runs would only clutter things. Also notice that he plays a little bit of lead under the second verse, kind of a crosspicking thing, just to add some energy, at around the 1:00 mark. It's kind of hard to hear but you can pick it out if you listen carefully. It also signifies that his break is coming next. Sometimes, but not always, the instrument that's taking the next break will provide the rhythm fills on the verse leading up to it. Unfortunately the banjo was doing it at the same time and I just noticed that. Something to fix...



It's not always about "less is more." Sometimes it's about what the song needs, and Bluegrass songs (at least the fast ones) need energy. A boring vanilla rhythm can sap the energy right out of a song like this. The trick is providing it without stepping on someone else...

[posternutbag]

To me, it depends on who I am playing with and what other instruments are in the mix.

If I am in traditional bluegrass guitar mode:
And if it is just say, guitar and mandolin (duet), I feel pretty comfortable adding bass runs while the mandolin is soloing and punctuating the end of phrases (instrumental and vocal) with G licks.

If there is a bass in the mix, I tend to lay off the bass runs, but I will still play G licks as accents.

If there is a banjo, I tend to play fewer G licks, maybe just at the end of a verse or chorus. In place of the G lick I will often use what I call a bluegrass slam (a loud down-up-down strum) as an accent.

However, there is also the consideration of how to play rhythm. I tend to bore easily, so instead of the standard boom-chuck, I often use the so-called "Dan Tyminski rhythm thing" where you just keep a groove going on 4 strings. My guitar teacher tends to think it is a bit too "progressive (which is a polite way of saying he thinks I overplay). My band mates think it adds a cool drive to the music.