Convert your Acoustic to a Baritone, or a Bb Guitar

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by Mooh

In the mid '90s, prior to purchasing a "baritone" (I use quotation marks because it's a 27" scale length rather than the perhaps more usual longer scales...no judgement, I still call it a baritone)

I'd call it a Baritone myself, although I've come think of a 27" to 28" as a "short-scale" Baritone, with a 28" to 29" as a "standard-scale" Baritone, and 29"or longer a long-scale Baritone. No judgement, heck, I have a fondness for standard guitars in shorter, 24.75' to 25" scales. Now, about those socks...

Originally Posted by Mooh

I experimented a lot with gauging up and tuning down on a '70s Takamine dreadnought. Some re-slotting of the nut and re-compensation of the saddle were required, and it's the compensation that limited the possibilities for me. This particular guitar just didn't have the ability to properly compensate for the lower pitched strings, though it otherwise sounded okay. It was okay down to D and C# standard, but beyond that it was hard to tune, and sounded dull and lifeless. It was a fun and educating experience, one which lead me to the eventual purchase of a baritone.

I never did that experiment myself, but I have a friend who is very finicky about tone and feel, who tried the same experiments with a Larrivee L-03. He ultimately bought a Baritone from David Webber. I did play a couple of other low-tuned standard-scaled guitars, as well as several LKSM-12s that were properly strung and tuned to C#. One LKSM-12 was in my friends store for qa few months, so although I could not experiment with stri8ng gauges, I did try different tunings.

My experience was the same as yours. They would sound full and good down to about C3 or C, and then get thin and lifeless. The low stings in particular had no character, sounding sort of "blah." No punch. No fullness.

Originally Posted by Mooh

So in '98 I received a new Beneteau baritone. Initially I tuned it quite low for me, A standard, to accommodate song and tune arrangements of the celtoid band I was with. With mandolin and banjo family instruments, keys, and woodwinds, it was useful to get out of their way and move to a lower register whenever possible. Once that band split, I gradually moved the tuning up so that now it's usually at D standard with D'Addario PB medium strings.

It's a bit of a specialty guitar, which perhaps at least partly explains the less standardized tunings and dimensions of the breed. I mean, few players use a baritone exclusively. It seems that the variety helps us create.

I started out in A to A standard, and then moved to B to B, in part because of the first position open chords that it affords. C to C never sounded right and I did not like the feel, although I never went to a lighter gauge to be sure. (I go by tone and feel more than anything. That I play a lot of short-scale standard guitars probably informs what I like in the Baritone, no doubt). I have been playing it a lot in Open A, Open D relationships (151351)

Originally Posted by Mooh

I figure if someone can get what they want out of any guitar at any tuning or configuration, good for them.

Amen. I've been fortunate to having had the opportunity to have played a lot of different Baritones, by different builders and in different scales over the years. I try to share those experiences, to try and be helpful. If something else works for someone, more power to them.

OMMV

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

I think the main point is instruments are deemed transposed relative to standard music notation if the pitches/notes being read and played have different fundamental frequencies. C is simply deemed the starting point for comparison between or among instruments. From a different perspective — instruments are deemed transposed relative to each other when each of the two players play the same pitch/note as written in standard music notation and the pitches heard have different fundamental frequencies.

This has been around for hundreds of years. It's an artifact.

Take a look at the written scores for a orchestra or big band jazz ensemble, specifically by comparing individual scores for a C instrument and a Bb instrument.

Take a look here:

https://www3.northern.edu/wieland/th...al/trans_1.htm

How does this help me with this move to a three fingered pulloff that I am trying to get down... <G>

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by GuitarinBb

This likely doesn't show the tone of the Thompson Bari so well, but through a decent system some of the tone will come through. I should just make a good stereo recording of the guitar alone and post it here for some idea of how it is.

https://soundcloud.com/wootzy/the-way-she-smiles

The vocal and sax do sort of dominate the guitar, so it is hard to hear the sound quality in isolation. Nice tune though.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by philjs

It always amazes me that some folks here have little issue with standard-tuned (or even DADGAD-tuned) guitars with scales as short as 24" but as soon as anyone mentions a short-scale "baritone" (or, tuned down one whole step, perhaps semi-baritone) then the naysayers come out with "oh, no, you can't do that!" Generally, they'll say something like, "well, it won't hold it's own at a session or in a group" unless it has a 28" or longer scale but I beg to differ!

Like the OP, I have a guitar that is setup for a semi-baritone tuning, in my case to CGCFGC, a full step below DADGAD so the 1st, 2nd and 6th strings are actually tuned down two steps and the 3rd to 5th are tuned down one step from standard, and it works very well. It's a '90 Larrivee J-09, a full 17" jumbo, with a slightly longer scale (25.7") using a custom set of strings (EXP singles in .015, .022w, .026,. 035, .045 and .070 with a total tension of 163.1 lbs, just slightly more than a light-gauge set on a 25.5" scale).

For anyone who thinks, "wow, an .070 for a bass string" keep in mind that the 28.3 lbs of tension at C is actually LESS than an .056 which has 29.1 lbs of tension at E. The Larrivee was set up specifically for those gauges and has been played this way for about 15 years now. It works quite nicely in ensemble work, too.

I also have a more recent fan-fret baritone, also a full 17" jumbo, 26" to 27.25" scale that I tune down to BbFBbEbFBb (two whole steps down from DADGAD, or 3 steps down for the 1st, 2nd and 6th strings, and two steps down for the 3rd to 5th, from standard) with similar string gauges (a light-gauge set with the 1st string discarded and a .070 bass string added, total 181.9 lbs or about 5 lbs less than a medium-gauge set at standard on a 25.5" scale) and it ALSO works very well, alone or in an acoustic ensemble.

A baritone does not have to have a 28" or longer scale to BE a baritone...it just needs to be appropriately strung for the intended pitches and then played.

Phil

You do realize that the OP has been referring to his standard-scale length guitar which he is tuning down to B to B?

[philjs]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

You do realize that the OP has been referring to his standard-scale length guitar which he is tuning down to B to B?

Nope, in his first post chart he showed he has a baritone tuned to B. His standard-scale guitar was tuned down one whole step (ie. a "Bb" instrument vs a "C" instrument).

On another note (ha!), like you and Mooh I also had my fan-fret baritone tuned down to A (albeit AEADEA so the DADGAD intervals version of B to B standard) but subsequently raised it to Bb because that's where the guitar sounds best. So I know where you guys are coming from...

Phil

[GuitarinBb]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

FYI LaBella makes a baritone set with an .080 low B string...

I do know that, but it's much harder to get them as singles than a typical GHS, D'Addario, etc.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by philjs

Nope, in his first post chart he showed he has a baritone tuned to B. His standard-scale guitar was tuned down one whole step (ie. a "Bb" instrument vs a "C" instrument).

On another note (ha!), like you and Mooh I also had my fan-fret baritone tuned down to A (albeit AEADEA so the DADGAD intervals version of B to B standard) but subsequently raised it to Bb because that's where the guitar sounds best. So I know where you guys are coming from...

Phil

Yu should read it again. He says he first tuned a 12-string down a step from standard, a common thing. I've heard a number of guitars tuned down a step or even step and a half, sort of a semi-baritone tuning, that were quite nice. He liked it and then began experimenting with a different standard guitar, a Thompson I think that he said. He said that he tunes this roughly 25.4 standard scale guitar down 2 1/2 steps, to B to B standard and claims it sounds as good as a purpose-made baritone, with a longer scale. I've not heard his guitar, but I've heard similar setups, as I've noted, and been unimpressed.

By the way, I do play in B to B, standard string relationships. But I also play in Open A, Open D tuned down 2 1/2 steps, which does put the 1st and 6 strings to A. I am not sure where Bb comes into the picture, unless you are tuning to Bb to Bb Dadgad relationships.

[GuitarinBb]

What I have is an amazing, exceptional guitar to begin with, a 1993 Thompson TM1 Jumbo, with a 25 9/16" scale length, and it has exceptional tone and depth. We all know that you can play a dozen guitars of the same model, and one will stand out. This is one of those. Check out the guitars of Ted Thompson if you are not familiar. I strung it as a baritone tuned B-B. It's amazing. The only "true" baritone I have ever been able to compare it to is the Santa Cruz, and I preferred the TM1. Possibly not everyone would. I'm not asking everyone, or even anyone to prefer it. I was simply offering my experience, especially for those that might want a baritone but can't afford one, or have a nice standard 6 they aren't using as much. Because of my perceived exceptional nature of my TM1, I suppose many cheaper guitars would not hold up to going this far out of the tonal range it was designed for. As I play my TM1, I cannot tell it was not designed to be exactly as it is right now, a baritone. I'm picky as hell about tone and intonation, and the TM1 seems spot on to me. I'll get around to making a decent recording of it alone shortly and post it here for those that have an interest.

[GuitarinBb]

Originally Posted by Mr Bojangles

Sub-standard like the Alvarez? That sounds like a clear assessment to me, in spite of the fact that you have played one extensively.

You're taking my comments out of context. I was referring to Wade Hampton's comments that suggested he "knew" that any standard guitar converted to baritone would not be as versatile or have as good a tone as a "true" baritone, and I suggested it was unwise to make such a judgement of an instrument he has not seen, played, nor heard.

[rick-slo]

Intonation up and down the neck would be off by doing this, but if you do not notice that or if that does not bother you then go for it.

[GuitarinBb]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Intonation up and down the neck would be off by doing this, but if you do not notice that or if that does not bother you then go for it.

The intonation is not off, however.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by GuitarinBb

The intonation is not off, however.

Like I said, if you don't hear it then you're good to go.

[GuitarinBb]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Like I said, if you don't hear it then you're good to go.

You havn't played it, you haven't heard it? Why insist? It's NOT like you said. You imply it IS off, and if I don't mind, then fine, or if I can't hear it, then fine, and I tell you it's NOT off.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by GuitarinBb

You havn't played it, you haven't heard it? Why insist? It's NOT like you said. You imply it IS off, and if I don't mind, then fine, or if I can't hear it, then fine, and I tell you it's NOT off.

Like I said, if you do not hear a problem then it is not a problem for you. However if interested, you might want to read about inharmonicity (what causes it and how it is usually dealt with in guitar construction and setup).

[GuitarinBb]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Like I said, if you do not hear a problem then it is not a problem for you. However if interested (apparently not of course) you might want to read about inharmonicity (what causes it and how it is usually dealt with in guitar construction and setup).

I am not a builder, I am a player and a writer, and if something works, it works. The small amount I investigated what you finally pointed to (why not introduce this first?) was so full of jargon I would need a translator to explain it. I am always interested in knowledge which is what the spirit of this thread was built on.