Myth or Fact -- Bigger Guitar Is Louder

[zuzu]

I think the statements here of the variables being so complex that the question is moot are pretty much on point. Even more so through the perception of the person actually playing the guitar. I have, on some thread here, related my experience of having my friend play all my guitars as I listened from about 10 feet away. A few made a sound I expected from playing them myself, a couple did not, one negatively and one positively. The one that didn't sound near as good from across the room as when playing it was the "loudest" guitar I had and sounded great while playing it, my #1 guitar. But it was actually kinda stinky from 10 ft. away. I was very surprised and sold it.

My bottom line is this; when you get a guitar settled in to how you like it, it will sound the way it sounds, volume included, don't matter none the size or shape. Comparing it to ANY other guitar is kind of silly, except as something fun to talk about.

[Alan Carruth]

I must have hit these points earlier in the thread, but I'm not going to take the time now to dredge it up.

First: 'loudness' is a subjective impression which is actually very hard to relate to power in a general way. Large guitars tend to sound louder, particularly to the player and folks close by, but it's easier to make a powerful small guitar, and the sound teds to 'carry' better out in front.

The reason it's easier to make a powerful small guitar is that the power output is a function of the relationship of the vibrating area of the top (mostly, the lower bout) and the mass. A higher A/m ratio produces more sound. As you enlarge the box, increasing the span of the lower bout, the stiffness drops assuming the same top thickness and structure. At some point it tends to fold up due to bridge torque, so you have to beef up the structure. This adds weight, and the weight goes up faster than the vibrating area, so the ratio of A/m goes down.

Large guitars have an advantage in producing low pitched sounds, partly because of the larger area of the top, but mostly because they can pump a larger volume of air through the hole. Low pitches tend to radiate in l directions about equally, so the player hears them as well as anybody in the room. High pitches tend to go off the top and out of the hole toward the audience, so a small guitar is radiating most of it's sound outward, and the play doesn't hear it as well.

It's all physics, as the guy says, but it's pretty complicated physics, and not altogether obvious. There may also be subjective effects. For example, we all know that big dogs bark at a lower pitch than small ones, and big dogs are more powerful. When we hear that low pitched 'bark' from the Dreadnaught we tend to assume it's more powerful. TYat may not be the case.

[LAPlayer]

7 years and 7 pages later......... and the answer is still maybe. If you want to know if one guitar is louder than another, simply meter it.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

Large guitars have an advantage in producing low pitched sounds, partly because of the larger area of the top, but mostly because they can pump a larger volume of air through the hole. Low pitches tend to radiate in l directions about equally, so the player hears them as well as anybody in the room. High pitches tend to go off the top and out of the hole toward the audience, so a small guitar is radiating most of it's sound outward, and the play doesn't hear it as well.

It's all physics, as the guy says, but it's pretty complicated physics, and not altogether obvious. There may also be subjective effects. For example, we all know that big dogs bark at a lower pitch than small ones, and big dogs are more powerful. When we hear that low pitched 'bark' from the Dreadnaught we tend to assume it's more powerful. TYat may not be the case.

Yes , And then when you consider the Fletcher Munson Equal Loudness Curves you introduce yet another variable into the perception of loudness situation.

Because Fletcher Munson showed that at the same/equal level of db-spl of sound output Humans tend to perceive the mid to mid high frequencies (1 kHz to 8kHz) as being louder than the lows and highs at the same db-spl level ..
And adds to why there is no pat answer that bigger always sounds louder

[abn556]

I would seem that these are things that are measurable with the right equipment.

What is the decibel output of a Jumbo vs a Dread vs 000 vs a parlor - not in theory but in real data.

What is the not just the total output frequency range of each instrument, but the total output at various frequencies of the guitars? In other words if a small guitar has as much total decibel output as a dread for example, how much of that total output is in the upper frequencies bands? I would assume the results would show smaller guitars will have way more mid to high range output than low range. Bigger guitars should have more lows, but not necessary less mids and highs. Its not that one sounds better in a subjective tone appraisal, I’m only talking about the quantifiable data.

[Alan Carruth]

abn556 wrote:
"I would seem that these are things that are measurable with the right equipment."

It's possible with the right equipment to measure the power output of a guitar, although it's not as easy as you might think. For one thing, it's so low that there's a lot of uncertainty: testimony to how sensitive 'normal' hearing is. The issue comes in relating that to the subjective impression of 'loudness' in various directions at different distances.

[Tony Burns]

Originally Posted by pgilmor

I would have to say that, all else being equal, it is a fact. But the truth is, all else is seldom equal. That being said, my fairly new Greven 0000 is really stinking loud!!! Holy smokes!

I would say my late '70's Greven White Lady jumbo is a high volume tone monster as well -

[Guitars44me]

As the hot rod folks say,

No substitute for cubic inches….

My John Kinnaird big guns are the cats PJs. Loud, rich, balanced, and very easy to hold and play.

Play em if ya got em

Paul

[Corndog]

How this thread keeps going and going with the hair splitting.

Key words: "Everything being equal" This requires reading comprehension.

All the other stuff is mostly irrelevant as there are too many variables. Some guy finding a 00 that's louder than some other guys jumbo is ridiculous as there are way too many reasons why someone might conclude that and proves nothing.

I prefer physics to anecdotes.
Best example: Martin guitars and their creation of the dreadnaught.

Why did they make the dreadnaught back in the day? To compete on stage with other louder instruments such as the banjo. It was louder.

Martin's guitars were made mostly of the same stuff, with mostly the same construction methods. The dreadnaught was larger, and the dreadnaught was louder.

Before someone points it out, I spelled dreadnaught with an a, not an o. That's how Martin spelled it when they created it. Changed later. Also, of course one can extrapolate the greater volume idea and apply it to a jumbo, for example.

[EZYPIKINS]

As far as volume goes. My HD-28 is the loudest acoustic I've got.

Much more so than the J-200's.

[Acoustic Voyage]

Presuming we equalize all other variables (e.g. wood, bracing, etc.) I consider it a fact.

[Mr. Jelly]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Because Fletcher Munson showed that at the same/equal level of db-spl of sound output Humans tend to perceive the mid to mid high frequencies (1 kHz to 8kHz) as being louder than the lows and highs at the same db-spl level ..
And adds to why there is no pat answer that bigger always sounds louder

This is the factual answer that has been proven out. It appears that it needs to be mentioned again.

[Alan Carruth]

Matt Umanov said at a GAL convention back in the 70s that Martin made the Dread to 'fill in the boom-chucks' between the banjo and the bass. It does that by having strong bass response with fast attack, thanks to the scalloped bracing on the top, and lots of air volume to support the low pitches. It is 'loud' up close, as I said, due to the way a guitar-sized box puts out sound at different pitches, but at a distance that advantage is lost compared to the bass, which has the top area and air volume to actually make a lot of power in the low range. It also has more output in it's low midrange than the banjo does, along with lot more sustain. It can cut through the mix because it does something that the banjo (or mandolin) doesn't do on one side, or the bass on the other. In that sense it's like a good singer.

A singer has a very limited power output, and most instruments in the orchestra can put out more sound than even a well trained singer. What the singer has that most instruments lack is the ability to shape the sound they make over a wide range of overtones. Trained singers can put out power in a range around 3000 Hz where most instruments are limited. This, combined with the use of tremolo and vibrato, allows the singer to take advantage of the way that listeners process sound to establish themselves as an individual voice that the listener can follow. The trumpet in the pit may be putting out a lot more power than the soprano on stage, but the audience can not only hear Brunhilda, but can tell that she's not happy, because of the way her voice stands out.

[jmagill]

I have no problem with all the physics being mentioned here: the volume of air being moved, the resonant frequencies of different body sizes, etc. – all those things that can be measured. I love all that stuff. However, the OP's question was asking if a bigger guitar is louder, in other words, do we hear it as louder, and now we're talking about perception, not physics.

Guitars vibrate air, which reaches our ear, but it's only when that air vibrates our eardrum, those little bones behind it and the cochlea, that signals of a certain type get sent to the brain that it recognizes as auditory information and we 'hear'. Our bodies collect sensory data (sight, sound, taste, smell, touch) and send it to the brain where the brain registers it as one of our senses. In other words, we hear with our brains, not our ears.

This is why I asked in post #85, Louder to whom? The player, or a listener out front, ten feet away? which seemed to puzzle some here.

I think many if not most here would agree that a guitar sounds different to the player and a listener. This is why many suggest, when guitar shopping, that a guitar-playing friend accompany them so they can hear what the guitar sounds like from out front as well as in their lap. Guitars are relatively quiet compared to other instruments, and they're designed to throw sound out, so the amplitude the player experiences (volume) is not quite the same as what a listener experiences (projection). This is what led to the development of archtop f-hole guitars, which were designed to have greater projection so they weren't overpowered by other instruments in an ensemble setting.

Crisp, small-bodied guitars can often have plenty of volume for the player but not much projection for a listener, and of course the inverse can also be true.

So, I ask again, Which amplitude are we talking about and which is more important to you?
.

[abn556]

Originally Posted by jmagill

So, I ask again, Which amplitude are we talking about and which is more important to you?
.

If I am the one paying for the guitar, its most important how it sounds to me - the player. I do agree though with bringing a friend with you who can play so you can listen to it from a few feet away. I have a good friend who always gets me to play all of his guitars when I am at his house. He likes to sit back and listen to someone else playing his gear.