How does this differ tonally? Spruce vs Mahogany top

brianwong · #1 08-29-2007, 12:19 AM

Hi all,

Need some comments from this community.

What's the tonal difference between a solid mahogany back/sides with solid spruce top guitar and a solid mahogany back/sides with solid mahogany top guitar?

Thanks

BlackHeart · #2 08-29-2007, 01:55 AM

I have been tapping my mahogany back to try to hear tones from it. Its like compressed cotten with lots of glue in it.
Spruce, my top, rings like a bell.( But so does my Ziricote at 3/8 thick, actually so does my Zirocote blocks, thats why I got them.)

Anyways, Spruce has resonances, bbbooooonnnnnggggggg, it sounds VERY 'musical'). The mahogany back does not, thunckk, thunckk, maybe in the lower register it does.

Im gonna do a wide strip of that Ziricote on a '3' piece back mahogany guitar, like the D-35 Martins. Try to get some riiiinnnnnggggg off the back. Some of the Ziri I have does not ring very good, some stuff I have is amazing but its orphaned, not for long though. I want the woody mahogany sound with some ziri spike.

Id stay away from hog tops! -JMO

wthurman · #3 08-29-2007, 01:58 AM

I had a mahogany topped 512 that was one of the best guitars I ever owned and I regret selling to this day. It was warm, balanced, and incredibly responsive. Backs don't sound like tops - they're not made to.

However, it varies greatly from guitar to guitar. I haven't played another that was as nice, although I've owned several since. Some came very close and were incredible, but you know how it is with past guitars... it takes a lot to overcome fond memories.

gtr4me · #4 08-29-2007, 02:55 AM

Some of the finest, riningest, guitars ever made have mahogany backs. I have a friend with a 35 year old gibson with a mahogany top and one of the reasons I like to go over there is because I know I will be able to play her guitar. I owned an all walnut guitar once (solid walnut top as well as b/s), while not loud it was very articulate, clear, and warm and enjoyed by those that played it.

There are some nice mahogany topped guitars. Do they sound different than spruce, probably as a general rule, but less a factor than how the luthier put it together. Different has no relationship to good or bad.

Dulope · #5 08-29-2007, 04:18 AM

Mahogany is the most stable of all guitar woods - That's why it is the primary wood for guitar necks - It's ability to transmit the string vibrations up to the body and resistance to twisting under tension is hard to beat - It has the best weight to stiffness ratio

Mahogany is a much lighter wood (weight wise) than most any other guitar wood - As a wood for back and sides it produces a very fundamental tone as compared to say rosewood which is a very dense heavy wood and adds "dark coloration" - The usual descrition is Mahogany is wood like tone

Sitka tops pair well with most back woods / Hog only seems to work with Hog - Sitka tops have a warm tone with sustain and more overtone enhancements / Hog tops will be drier ... almost crisp and a lot quicker ..... some say more articulate

Some folks dissapointment with Hog guitars as "dead sounding" are from playing guitars made by the bulk builders who use the same building specs for hog guitars as everyother guitar they make - The bulk builders overbuild the whole guitar and it can't vibrate properly

A lot depends on the builders bracing choices - A good luthier can take advantage of the basic strength of Mahagony and use a thinner top with scalloped braces that pushes a lot of air and coaxs some terrific tones out of a box - Santa Cruz hogs seem to have a very good reputation

Mahogany guitars are absolutely the lightest guitars you'll ever hold - If you ever pick one up that feels heavy odds are it will be dead as a door nail ... if you pick up one that is light as a feather you'll be in for a treat - That's a simple test

When Mahogany is used as top wood some amazing things happen to a guitar's tone but the sound is not for eveyone ...... find a good one and take her for a spin

ljguitar · #6 08-29-2007, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwong

...What's the tonal difference between a solid mahogany back/sides with solid spruce top guitar and a solid mahogany back/sides with solid mahogany top guitar?

Hi Brian...
It really depends on who builds the guitar, but I find the Mahogany tops very dry and not that pleasing on the models I've played. The Spruce tops had more warmth and ''depth'' to the sound.

kente777 · #7 08-29-2007, 08:08 AM

I think the easiest way to describe it would be that the spruce top would give you a more punchy, loud sound while the mahogany top would give you more of a mellow, subdued sound. Because we're dealing with mahagony back and sides, both guitars would be very balanced and emphasize fundamentals.

Ken

wthurman · #8 08-29-2007, 10:18 AM

Actually, MOST all mahogany-topped guitars I've tried have tended toward bright (but still less than maple/sitka), except for the one I liked that I've mentioned. It's a very stiff wood.

opencee · #9 08-29-2007, 09:51 PM

I'm 53. I started playing guitar at age 10. I played ukulele before that. I lived in Western Samoa. I begged my parents for a guitar. They asked some guy on a freighter ship to pick one up in any port that had one. Sure enough, in about 6 months he ended up back in Samoa with a new guitar for me.

I've owned a number of guitars, some expensive, and some cheap. Over the course of many years I've gotten rid of all but three.

I wish I had never gotten rid of an old Harmony 12-string. It had a great sound, but I was ignorant enough to want something fancier. I bought a what I thought was a handsome maple and spruce 12-String to replace it. Total crap. I bought an expensive six string dred that was very nice in its own way, with german spruce and braz. Never bonded with it. At 21, I totally lost interest in playing guitar and got rid of all but the one crappy 12-string, and made a 15 year attempt at clawhammer banjo.

For some reason, my sister gave me her old 60's Harmony Sovereign concert or auditorium size (Spruce on mahogany.). I played it to death for years. This old Harmony got me back into guitar. It was just a great finger picker for folk and country blues. A great stripped down sound that worked perfectly for what I do. Eventually, the top split and it's in such bad repair that I put a nut riser on it to play lap slide. I just couldn't give it up.

When I knew it wasn't going to hold up forever, I went shopping for a replacement. I really like that very fundamental sound, maybe from years of playing an open-back banjo. I went to guitar stores for years. I tried everything. There are a lot of great guitars out there. It's easy to be tempted by all the pretty guitars and sounds, but I really couldn't bond with any of them, and not for lack of trying. Also funny is how many very generic sounding guitars there are, all the way from the bottom to the top of the price scale.

I didn't read anything about guitars. I was not picky about brands. I wasn't even picky about price. I didn't do online research. I just figured I'd know the right one when I found it.

Four years ago I pulled a Martin 000-15 off of a store wall. Absolutely perfect! Bought it. That all mahogany sound just suits me to a T. Now I try every all-mahogany guitar I see. I love some of the really old ones, but mine has that basic, woody, warm (ljguitar said that spruce is warmer. Not sure I agree, but I will go with dry.), almost anachronistic throwback sound that appeals to me. I hear Woody Guthrie, Mississippi John Hurt, Taj Mahal, and even Nick Drake when I play mine. Very cool. Hey, it was cheap, too.

All-mahogany is not for everybody, but I wouldn't trade mine for anything. I still shop for guitars, but I've decided that I'm pretty picky about what sounds I like. What I like is certainly not the modern norm.

As for spruce tops, I just passed on a really great sounding '64 Martin 00-18 (One of those old paddle heads with spruce on mahogany.). Another terrific sounding fingerpicker. It caused me great stress because it sounded so great, but needed a lot of work. It was more of a project than I wanted to take on. It was about the price of a new one but it needed a lot more put into neck, frets, nut, and a buch of unknowns, but you can't buy a new one that sounds like that. Alas.

I am not sure why I've rambled like this, other than to say, "Buy what YOU like." I like all-mahogany enough to always have one, but I might add another spruce on mahogany. Play a bunch, you'll figure out what YOUR sound is.

brianwong · #10 09-03-2007, 09:07 AM

Thanks for all your input.

I think some people describe the sound to be crisp and dry or woody. I just wonder whether mahogany top will open up as the guitar ages? If yes, how would the sound develop?

LemonBoy · #11 09-03-2007, 09:32 AM

Opencee, It's nice that you've found a combination that you like. For me it is the opposite though -
I had an old classical nylon string as my first guitar. I listen to alot of that "Mississippi John Doe" style (

), and after an online search (I did a small tour to some small shops - and played a small variety of guitars as there are not many here) I decided to order a Martin 000-15. After a couple of months owning it, I think I missed the point on that one. The sound is just too "dry" for me. I've seen many reviews of it saying it was "warm", but IMO it is like bread - when it is warmed up in the microwave too much, it becomes too dry

There's a thread I opened here about how to solve the issue of shrill and harsh treble response, maybe even crisp as Brian suggested. but now I suspect the source of the problem is actually the tone woods. I love that ragtime-and-blues style vintage music, but I just can't seem to bond with the all-mahogany sound.

I guess my search isn't over yet...

Blue in VT · #12 09-03-2007, 09:38 AM

It is intersting that there is such a bias against Mahogany topped guitars in some peoples minds...

Anyway...obviously I do not harbor said predjudice. I'm the proud owner of a Larrivee OM-05MT....and it is the guitar Against which I rate all others. It has a warmth and depth to it that are absolutly perfect for the fingerpickin blues I play. It growls when played hard but sparkles when tickled just right...and however you play it it is loaded with Mojo!

I find that Spruce topped Mahogany guitars have more punch...ie louder...they are crisper...and more articulate. To my ear they are also somewhat sterile and brittle soundling. This is perfect for some types of music...I prefer my sitka topped OM for rags and very intricate tunes. But the Hog top takes the lead when feeling is called for.

As far as opening up...I've had my MT for 1 1/2 years...purchased new...and it has certainly opened up over the last 9 months or so. Looking back on it now the guitar was very tight and compressed sounding when new ...especially in terms of bass response. Howver after daily playing the top has loosened up nicely and the guitar as a whole has bloosomed into a rich sounding guitar. I can only hope that this trend will continue...

Here are a couple of sound clips...all mistakes are mine and not the fault of the guitar....

http://media.putfile.com/Mary-Helen---spoonful

http://media.putfile.com/Mary-Helen---Night-Time

http://media.putfile.com/Mary-Helen---Wilson-Rag

Heres a photo too:

I guess the best advice is to give a hog top a try and see if it floats your boat...people seem to either love them or......not

Enjoy the hunt

Blue

3rd_harmonic · #13 09-03-2007, 09:49 AM

I've never compared two guitars that were identical except for tops being mahogany and spruce. So some of what I hear may be the other factors that affect tone. That said....

My Martin 000-15S with a mahogany top ( and hog B/S) has a woody, throaty sound
My Gibson J-45 with a spruce top ( and hog B/S) doesn't have that sound.

Both are well balanced and responsive to my bare fingers style.

Cornerstone Guitars · #14 09-03-2007, 11:44 AM

Mahogany topped guitars sound good and so do Koa for that matter.... I just think that while they do sound good they are no match for a spruce,redwood or cedar topped guitar.
If you want a hog top for some reason go ahead and get it, you wont be disapointed with the quality of the sound...**BUT** I would suggest you play one first.

mvilland · #15 09-04-2007, 02:42 PM

I have a Martin 000-15 and let me say this, play it for a few HOURS not minutes. It took me WEEKS to learn to love this guitar. i was used to solid spruce top martins (D-18). But now, I sold the D-18 because I didn't pick it up any more. I absolutely LOVE the all hog 000-15 now. I went to gutiar center this weekend to try their stock out, and ended up going home early to play my hog.

nothing compaired!