Iris Guitars with Grovers, etc..

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by Methos1979

I have wondered this as well, not the shape of the headstock but the disparate thickness. The backside is flat while the front side is angled. So it's thicker at the bottom than the top. I wonder if this causes there to be an uneven pressure on one side of the bushing/post which causes them to turn harder. I replaced my GA tuners on my DF with Schaller GrandTune machines and while much better than the GA, the low strings were still fairly hard to turn. Same with the Rickard Cyclone tuners, better again still more than the Schaller's but not nearly as smooth as advertised.

Interesting theory, but gears are still gears. I've never had good tuners that worked better on one part of the headstock. They just turn. Some players care about gear ratios, but again, all the gears in the set should work the same regardless of ratio.

That angle affects the sound, not the turnability. That's why Fender electrics have string trees holding down the two strings farthest from the headsrtock.

The problem is with the tuners, not the headstock. Get new ones.

[UncleJesse]

Originally Posted by Methos1979

I have wondered this as well, not the shape of the headstock but the disparate thickness. The backside is flat while the front side is angled. So it's thicker at the bottom than the top. I wonder if this causes there to be an uneven pressure on one side of the bushing/post which causes them to turn harder. I replaced my GA tuners on my DF with Schaller GrandTune machines and while much better than the GA, the low strings were still fairly hard to turn. Same with the Rickard Cyclone tuners, better again still more than the Schaller's but not nearly as smooth as advertised.

Are the Grand Tunes tight or sloppy without a string? Schaller is the easiest company to deal with as far as replacing tuners that aren't right.

[Methos1979]

Originally Posted by Charlie Bernstein

Interesting theory, but gears are still gears. I've never had good tuners that worked better on one part of the headstock. They just turn. Some players care about gear ratios, but again, all the gears in the set should work the same regardless of ratio.

That angle affects the sound, not the turnability. That's why Fender electrics have string trees holding down the two strings farthest from the headsrtock.

The problem is with the tuners, not the headstock. Get new ones.

It's not about the string break angle but rather the post angle created by the taper of the headstock. The tuning machine posts are held in place via a bushing that has some play in it and then the nut on top which is tightened down on top of a washer. The post protrudes perpendicular from the back of the headstock where the tuning machines are mounted. The washer and nut then tighten down from the top slightly angled due to the tapered top and therefore the pressure might not be evenly distributed causing the post to bind in the bushing which makes for more difficult turning, especially on the lower strings.

I'll admit that these are just thoughts that have crept into my tiny pinhead mind with zero actually engineering knowledge to back it up. It just makes sense logically to me. In fact, I would think/hope that any guitar manufacturer would know about this stuff in advance and know that it's not an issue. I wonder if a tuning machine with a sealed bushing might work better/smoother. I might bore out the holes again after I do the headstock refinish this spring/summer and try some Gotoh 510's.

I'm also wondering, are there any other guitar headstocks out there that have a taper in them? I remember having a Bourgeois slope dread that had the same issue with binding/hard to turn tuners (Waverly). I reached out to Stewmac and they replaced the tuners (free of charge) and the new ones were just as bad as the ones they replaced which led me to believe the problem was with the guitar and not the tuners. But I can't remember if that headstock had a taper like the IRIS as it was long ago.

[Methos1979]

Originally Posted by UncleJesse

Are the Grand Tunes tight or sloppy without a string? Schaller is the easiest company to deal with as far as replacing tuners that aren't right.

There is a little slop. Not much but enough that if the nut/washer that is tightened down on them at an angle, the post might bind a bit especially when under greater tension from the lower/fatter strings.

[upsidedown]

Originally Posted by Methos1979

It's not about the string break angle but rather the post angle created by the taper of the headstock. The tuning machine posts are held in place via a bushing that has some play in it and then the nut on top which is tightened down on top of a washer. The post protrudes perpendicular from the back of the headstock where the tuning machines are mounted. The washer and nut then tighten down from the top slightly angled due to the tapered top and therefore the pressure might not be evenly distributed causing the post to bind in the bushing which makes for more difficult turning, especially on the lower strings.

Logical.

Can no longer post pics though...for some reason.

[pagedr]

Originally Posted by Methos1979

I'm also wondering, are there any other guitar headstocks out there that have a taper in them?

Assuming we're talking about the same thing, every Gibson from before 1950 (might have crept into that year a bit) had a tapered headstock. Never had issues with turning the tuners on those guitars unless they were just at a point where they needed to be replaced, in which case the replacements always worked just fine. I believe Waterloo guitars have a similar taper as well.

[upsidedown]

Originally Posted by pagedr

Assuming we're talking about the same thing, every Gibson from before 1950 (might have crept into that year a bit) had a tapered headstock. Never had issues with turning the tuners on those guitars unless they were just at a point where they needed to be replaced, in which case the replacements always worked just fine. I believe Waterloo guitars have a similar taper as well.

Can't tell from the picture if both the top and bottom of that Gibson headstock is (are?) tapered. As Methos points out, the top, not the bottom of the Iris headstock is tapered.

[UncleJesse]

I have Grovers on my OG and they're perfect. No issues. Same with the DF I used to own. I very much dislike the golden age tuners. Seems like most do, I don't understand why they use them. Grover statites are $27 a set on ebay. Golden Age tuners list for $109. Even the nicer Grovers are only $60 a set. Gotoh Se700 are $50.

[gr81dorn]

Originally Posted by UncleJesse

I have Grovers on my OG and they're perfect. No issues. Same with the DF I used to own. I very much dislike the golden age tuners. Seems like most do, I don't understand why they use them. Grover statites are $27 a set on ebay. Golden Age tuners list for $109. Even the nicer Grovers are only $60 a set. Gotoh Se700 are $50.

It's purely aesthetic, which is why Collings uses them on Waterloos and Beard did on their flat tops (RIP). Someone would do well to come out with pre-tarnished GOOD tuners.

And, to your point on price, when the Golden Age ones came out, they were among the cheaper ones out there, but that's certainly not the case any longer. They've doubled in the past 5 years or so.

[pagedr]

Originally Posted by upsidedown

Can't tell from the picture if both the top and bottom of that Gibson headstock is (are?) tapered. As Methos points out, the top, not the bottom of the Iris headstock is tapered.

It's the top on the Gibson, same with Waterloo if I remember right

Here's a better Gibson pic I found:

[hubcapsc]

I bet (a nickle) that upsidedown is on target in the OP...
I think it would be interesting to remove one of the sets and
see if they are hard to turn when uninstalled. I have a set
that was icky and bindy in one guitar, I put that set on my
cf-100 and they are great, no binding...

-Mike

[gfirob]

+1 for the "I hate those Golden Age tuners" opinion. I had them on a vintage National as replacements for the originals and they were awful.

[jdinco]

Originally Posted by hubcapsc

I bet (a nickle) that upsidedown is on target in the OP...
I think it would be interesting to remove one of the sets and
see if they are hard to turn when uninstalled.

-Mike

I've done that, they are fine uninstalled.

[Zissou Intern]

I’ve owned a few Gibson inspired guitars with tapered pegheads with various tuners including Waverly, Klusons, and Golden Age. The grommets didn’t sit flush on any of them. It’s not possible unless diameter of the grommet hole is significantly larger than the diameter of the tuner shaft. The edge of the grommet toward the top of the headstock is going to pull up. My current Burkett J45 and past Walker Wise River, both fantastic guitars, had this same issue. I believe John Walker is no longer spec’ing his guitars with a peghead taper.

[upsidedown]

Originally Posted by Zissou Intern

I’ve owned a few Gibson inspired guitars with tapered pegheads with various tuners including Waverly, Klusons, and Golden Age. The grommets didn’t sit flush on any of them. It’s not possible unless diameter of the grommet hole is significantly larger than the diameter of the tuner shaft. The edge of the grommet toward the top of the headstock is going to pull up. My current Burkett J45 and past Walker Wise River, both fantastic guitars, had this same issue. I believe John Walker is no longer spec’ing his guitars with a peghead taper.

Thanks for posting the picture for me. My OG has the same issue you mention; grommets being pulled up. There's some debate but, assuming the taper exacerbates the tuner problem, could there be a custom work around to make the tuners fit and work better?


Oh, and hubcapsc, I removed the tuners and turned them. Not super smooth, but also not impossible.