Sapele vs African Mahogany

[Jim]

When Taylor first started making the 300s they used sapele and they advertised them as "African mahogany" guitars. Then they switched to calling them sapele as people became more educated and began to accept this alternative wood. Later they changed to khaya and again they went back to using a deceptive marketing name of "African mahogany" instead of the real name of khaya. As has been stated, there are no such woods as "African mahogany", "American mahogany", "Philippine mahogany" etc. Those are just some made up marketing names some sellers, including Taylor, use since many buyers have never heard of woods such as sapele, khaya, lauan, meranti, etc. Sapele is sapele, khaya is khaya, rosewood is rosewood, maple is maple, mahogany is mahogany, etc. You don't see these same marketers advertising real mahogany as "American sapele" or "American khaya". What some sellers market as "American mahogany" is really just mahogany and it is the only real mahogany on the market these days. If you want to give it a correct adjective it would be "bigleaf mahogany" since the full botanical name is Swietenia macrophylla and macrophylla means big leaf. It only grows in the western hemisphere.

Taylor going back to sapele and no longer using khaya is not a downgrading of the wood. If anything they are becoming a little more honest in saying what wood they are really using. Both sapele and khaya are nice guitar woods that are abundantly available at reasonable prices in the wood market and that have some similarities to mahogany because they are distantly related to it, biologically speaking. Given the rarity and skyrocketing price of mahogany, both sapele or khaya make decent low cost alternatives.

Being in the same biological family (Meliacea) only means that there are certain biological characteristics that have some similarities and there are many hundreds of Species of trees and shrubs in this biological grouping called a Family. To understand what the biological term "Family" means, humans and orangutans are in the same biological family Homindae, but I don't know anyone who would honestly say that people are humans that come from Africa while orangutans are humans that come from Indonesia. While there are a few biological similarities and while one can make jokes about some people we know, we are very different Species. Humans are humans and orangutans are orangutans.

If anything, I would see the return to sapele to be either a sideways move or perhaps even a slight upgrade from khaya. Neither is a traditional tonewood, but sapele is further along in becoming one than khaya.

[Herb Hunter]

I wish the lumber companies would be more careful with the names they use for different wood species. Just as the term, mahogany, is misused so too is the term rosewood.

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

...According to Wikipedia, "...African mahogany, (is) the only timber widely accepted as mahogany besides that of the true mahogany, of the genus Swietenia."

[Kabalan]

hi
i just chec in www.colonialtonewoods.com a piece for back and sides for
sapele is so chip!!( and ovangkol, indian rosewood, sitka, red cedar. etc)
luthiers has to be more honest, they charge for the work not for wood prices!!

[Sage97]

I've played both sapele and Afr. mahogany guitars and my ears hear more tonal similarities than differences.

I like the look of sapele so I decided on one.

[woodruff]

Originally Posted by Jim

When Taylor first started making the 300s they used sapele and they advertised them as "African mahogany" guitars. Then they switched to calling them sapele as people became more educated and began to accept this alternative wood. Later they changed to khaya and again they went back to using a deceptive marketing name of "African mahogany" instead of the real name of khaya. As has been stated, there are no such woods as "African mahogany", "American mahogany", "Philippine mahogany" etc. Those are just some made up marketing names some sellers, including Taylor, use since many buyers have never heard of woods such as sapele, khaya, lauan, meranti, etc. Sapele is sapele, khaya is khaya, rosewood is rosewood, maple is maple, mahogany is mahogany, etc. You don't see these same marketers advertising real mahogany as "American sapele" or "American khaya". What some sellers market as "American mahogany" is really just mahogany and it is the only real mahogany on the market these days. If you want to give it a correct adjective it would be "bigleaf mahogany" since the full botanical name is Swietenia macrophylla and macrophylla means big leaf. It only grows in the western hemisphere.

Taylor going back to sapele and no longer using khaya is not a downgrading of the wood. If anything they are becoming a little more honest in saying what wood they are really using. Both sapele and khaya are nice guitar woods that are abundantly available at reasonable prices in the wood market and that have some similarities to mahogany because they are distantly related to it, biologically speaking. Given the rarity and skyrocketing price of mahogany, both sapele or khaya make decent low cost alternatives.

Being in the same biological family (Meliacea) only means that there are certain biological characteristics that have some similarities and there are many hundreds of Species of trees and shrubs in this biological grouping called a Family. To understand what the biological term "Family" means, humans and orangutans are in the same biological family Homindae, but I don't know anyone who would honestly say that people are humans that come from Africa while orangutans are humans that come from Indonesia. While there are a few biological similarities and while one can make jokes about some people we know, we are very different Species. Humans are humans and orangutans are orangutans.

If anything, I would see the return to sapele to be either a sideways move or perhaps even a slight upgrade from khaya. Neither is a traditional tonewood, but sapele is further along in becoming one than khaya.

thanks jim for the well though out input. this makes me happy, and i will stop whining about sapele. knowing my ears, its' not like i will be able to tell a difference anyway. just dont like the dark orange hue. but so be it, a GA-3 would still be a solid guitar.....

[bluebirdtrucker]

IMHO it's a matter of personal preference. My '06 310 is African Mahogany, and it sounds great to me. And everyone who's played my 310 thinks so, too.
Just because it's lower on the scale doesn't make it an undesirable guitarwood. I also demoed the 210 Sapele model and I really liked its sound and playability. If you go to the Martin website, you'll see they also use Sapele quite extensively, and not on their low-end guitars, either. It's a very nice wood, although less expensive than other woods. It kinda makes nice solid-wood guitars available to those of us who aren't loaded in the pocketbook, ya know?

Just my opinion.

[Flying Finn]

I`ve been just thinkin which one is more susceptible to humidity changes or is there any difference at all?

Is Sapele harder by it`s surface and more long-lasting than African Mahongany? I mean in the case you bang it.

[johnnyb]

Originally Posted by Fstpicker

Personally, and especially after owning a 2001 Taylor 310 with Sapele B&S, I don't have any qualms about owning a Sapele guitar any longer. My 310 sounds absolutely WONDERFUL

Jeff, I must have got my 310 about the same time. In 2001 I thoroughly researched the model and knew all about the construction (other than how to pronounce "sapele"). When I went to the nearest Taylor dealer to look for a 310, I saw they listed it as "mahogany". I guess back then sapele was not a well-known tonewood and it was just easier for dealers to call it mahogany rather that explain what sapele was or mispronounce it. Anyway, I have to agree that it looks and sounds beautiful. At some point Taylor started to specify 310s with "mahogany", probably because people just wouldn't buy into the sapele thing. After all, it's not just about efficient, low-cost construction, but you have to actually sell these guitars, and if customers perceive some kind of "cheapness" stigma attached to sapele, you'd better change the specs to drive sales. It appears that in 2007 Taylor has gone full circle on this thing and you see a lot of sapele in the new model specs.

[joe tone]

Originally Posted by SJB

Sorry, but no it isn't.

Sapele= Entandrophragma cylindricum
African Mahogany= Khaya anthotheca
Tropical American Mahogany (Real Mahogany)= Swietenia macrophylla

Sapele is a commonly exported and economically important African wood species. It’s sold both in lumber and veneer form. It is occasionally used as a substitute for Genuine Mahogany, and is sometimes referred to as “Sapele Mahogany.” Technically, the two genera that are commonly associated with mahogany are Swietenia and Khaya, while Sapele is in the Entandrophragma genus, but all three are included in the broader Meliaceae family

[joe tone]

Originally Posted by Jim

When Taylor first started making the 300s they used sapele and they advertised them as "African mahogany" guitars. Then they switched to calling them sapele as people became more educated and began to accept this alternative wood. Later they changed to khaya and again they went back to using a deceptive marketing name of "African mahogany" instead of the real name of khaya. As has been stated, there are no such woods as "African mahogany", "American mahogany", "Philippine mahogany" etc. Those are just some made up marketing names some sellers, including Taylor, use since many buyers have never heard of woods such as sapele, khaya, lauan, meranti, etc. Sapele is sapele, khaya is khaya, rosewood is rosewood, maple is maple, mahogany is mahogany, etc. You don't see these same marketers advertising real mahogany as "American sapele" or "American khaya". What some sellers market as "American mahogany" is really just mahogany and it is the only real mahogany on the market these days. If you want to give it a correct adjective it would be "bigleaf mahogany" since the full botanical name is Swietenia macrophylla and macrophylla means big leaf. It only grows in the western hemisphere.

Taylor going back to sapele and no longer using khaya is not a downgrading of the wood. If anything they are becoming a little more honest in saying what wood they are really using. Both sapele and khaya are nice guitar woods that are abundantly available at reasonable prices in the wood market and that have some similarities to mahogany because they are distantly related to it, biologically speaking. Given the rarity and skyrocketing price of mahogany, both sapele or khaya make decent low cost alternatives.

Being in the same biological family (Meliacea) only means that there are certain biological characteristics that have some similarities and there are many hundreds of Species of trees and shrubs in this biological grouping called a Family. To understand what the biological term "Family" means, humans and orangutans are in the same biological family Homindae, but I don't know anyone who would honestly say that people are humans that come from Africa while orangutans are humans that come from Indonesia. While there are a few biological similarities and while one can make jokes about some people we know, we are very different Species. Humans are humans and orangutans are orangutans.

If anything, I would see the return to sapele to be either a sideways move or perhaps even a slight upgrade from khaya. Neither is a traditional tonewood, but sapele is further along in becoming one than khaya.

Cocobolo was not a traditional tone wood either but it rocks. I am glad we are getting to see a new variety of woods while old supplies are reforested.

[GuitarLight]

Sapele, in my view is superior to Mahogany. Better tone, clearer and more articulated. It's one of the industry's best kept secrets. Expect the price to double when the mass population of Guitarists discover this. Many already have. I prefer my Sapele guitars over my Premium Honduran Mahogany guitar. In fact the Honduran Mahogany I have sold off. The Sapele is just so much better sounding...and looking.

[Athana]

Originally Posted by SJB

Sorry, but no it isn't.

Sapele= Entandrophragma cylindricum
African Mahogany= Khaya anthotheca
Tropical American Mahogany (Real Mahogany)= Swietenia macrophylla

Don't forget the even more real mahogany..Cuban Mahogany. : )

[AJGorman]

Sapele is a wonderful tonewood all its own. I have owned guitars built with both Sapele and Mahogany, and I admire them equally. While Sapele has a lot of the tonal properties of Mahogany, it has its own nuances.

David Webber started building with Sapele about fifteen years ago, before many builders even knew what it was. He recognized its wonderful tonal characteristics back then and still builds with it today.

The decision to use Sapele versus Mahogany is about cost and availability versus quality.

I love my Mahogany Webber, but I wouldn’t hesitate to acquire a guitar built with Sapele if my wallet and wife would accommodate it.... Whatever sounds good to you is where the decision lies, IMHO.

[joe tone]

or Koa, Hawaiian-like Mahogany

[flaggerphil]

Wow...a 7-year resurrection!



I've always liked sapele...to me it sounds very much like "real" mahogany.