Sapele vs African Mahogany

woodruff · #1 02-12-2007, 02:46 PM

So, based on the thread of the Taylor 314 for 2007, the entire 300 series is returning to Sapele. This in my mind is a downgrade, not an enhancement. Begs the question for me who was considering another 300 series taylor down the road, how close tonally is Sapele and African Mahogany? I certainly prefer the look of African Hog best, for the orangish hue of the Sapele i find troubling. Is it a cheaper wood, and why would they downgrade then?

thanks!

KMHaynes · #2 02-12-2007, 02:54 PM

I don't know about cheaper, quality-wise, but sapele may be cheaper, price-wise. May be the "African Mahogany" they were using for the past 2 years on the 300 is becoming harder to get??? The sapele is probably easier to get, and Taylor uses lots of sapele (300, 100, both Babys, Nylon, T5).

jhchang · #3 02-12-2007, 03:43 PM

cost reduction. Simple.

Herb Hunter · #4 02-12-2007, 03:52 PM

As the former owner of a 25th Anniversary GA with which I was very happy, I can't regard sapele as a low quality wood. I've never played a guitar with African mahogany but the sapele guitar I had was similar in tone to my Honduran mahogany guitar.

Mike Deane · #5 02-12-2007, 03:53 PM

A respected dealer once told me that Sapele IS African Mahagony.

SJB · #6 02-12-2007, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Deane

A respected dealer once told me that Sapele IS African Mahagony.

Sorry, but no it isn't.

Sapele= Entandrophragma cylindricum
African Mahogany= Khaya anthotheca
Tropical American Mahogany (Real Mahogany)= Swietenia macrophylla

Herb Hunter · #7 02-12-2007, 04:17 PM

Sapele (entandrophragma cylindricum) and African mahogany (khaya anthotheca) are not of the same genus as Central American mahogany (swietenia macrophylla) and Spanish/Cuban mahogany (swietenia mahogani). All four woods belong to the family, meliaceae, however. Sapele, African Mahogany and Central American mahogany look so similar that if I were shown samples of each I don't think I could identify which is which with any consistency.

According to Wikipedia, "...African mahogany, (is) the only timber widely accepted as mahogany besides that of the true mahogany, of the genus Swietenia.

woodruff · #8 02-12-2007, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

Sapele (entandrophragma cylindricum) and African mahogany (khaya anthotheca) are not of the same genus as Central American mahogany (swietenia macrophylla) and Spanish/Cuban mahogany (swietenia mahogani). All four woods belong to the family, meliaceae, however. Sapele, African Mahogany and Central American mahogany look so similar that if I were shown samples of each I don't think I could identify which is which with any consistency.

According to Wikipedia, "...African mahogany, (is) the only timber widely accepted as mahogany besides that of the true mahogany, of the genus Swietenia.

well stated. so sapele is a downgrade in quality. i hope the price reflects this, for that would be fair.

cpmusic · #9 02-12-2007, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SJB

Sorry, but no it isn't.

That's true in the strictest sense, but the term "African mahogany" has been applied to both sapele and khaya for some time, most likely as a marketing tool.

It may be that they are about equal in cost and utility, and that sapele was chosen because it's the better known name. However, even if it was a cost-saving measure, it's nothing to worrry about, as sapele seems to be proving itself as a worthy tonewood.

Folkstrum · #10 02-12-2007, 04:22 PM

Look: argue all you may wish about genus and species. I have had the pleasure of playing BOTH. Any audible difference I suspect is in the mind. If you MUST have the "pedigree" by all means go for the "genuine mahogany." If you're looking for sound, tone, woodiness, and whatever, don't worry. Be happy (as the song goes). It is really to the human ear, mostly inaudible. My 2 cents.

woodruff · #11 02-12-2007, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Folkstrum

Look: argue all you may wish about genus and species. I have had the pleasure of playing BOTH. Any audible difference I suspect is in the mind. If you MUST have the "pedigree" by all means go for the "genuine mahogany." If you're looking for sound, tone, woodiness, and whatever, don't worry. Be happy (as the song goes). It is really to the human ear, mostly inaudible. My 2 cents.

thanks dude, that is good to hear. so long as she sounds teh same, i would still consider another 300 series, but the look to me is different. and i would save for the "real" thing in a 500 series but that abalone would drive me insane.

Herb Hunter · #12 02-12-2007, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodruff

well stated. so sapele is a downgrade in quality. i hope the price reflects this, for that would be fair.

I don't agree that sapele is a lower quality wood. There may be examples of the wood that are low quality but good sapele is a desirable wood. Please see my first post of this thread. In fact, if the tonal quality of the sapele guitar I had is typical, I might prefer it to Central American mahogany.

GroundlessNFree · #13 02-12-2007, 11:01 PM

If Sapele is such a lower quality wood than African Mahogany than why does Taylor offer it through the new custom ordering system when they won't be offering African Mahogany?

Sapele used to be considered a rare and limited wood, and Brazilian Rosewood used to be considered easy to get normal wood. Things change. Sapele being cheap to purchase doesn't mean it doesn't sound good. It's not for everyone, but it's not a downgrade from African Mahogany in tonal characteristics.

Buy what you hear, even what you visually like, but don't buy because it should be good or bad.

franchelB · #14 02-12-2007, 11:41 PM

Apparently, Steinway & sons' pianos think differently about the Sapele's quality and, dare I say, durability.

1. http://www.grandgrands.com/www/pianopg/os36A3moxxx.jpg

2. http://www.grandgrands.com/www/pianopg/s14OsmLo.jpg

It's interesting to also note that quite a few other guitar manufacturers use Sapele for some of their guitar models, Bashkin, Larrivee, Martin, McCollum, McElroy, and Morgan, just to name a few.

johnnycat · #15 02-13-2007, 12:13 AM

Sapele (pronounced sa-peel-ee) is a hardwood which comes from eastern and western Africa, and grows in a range of climates from the Ivory Coast to the Cameroons, and eastward through Zaire to Uganda. Sapele (Entandrophragma cylindricum) is of the family Meliaceae which includes mahagony. Although some may refer to it as sapele-mahogony it is not a member of the genus Swietena and therefore is not considered a true mahogony by purists.

Sapele is a wood with numerous kinds of figuration; pommele, quilted, fiddleback, striped, blistered, wavy and has pieces which exhibit combinations of these effects. The best boards have a fabric-like 3 dimensional appearance. The color is similiar to African mahagony and it's strength is comparable to oak. Sapele exhibits a salmon-like color when cut, turning medium to dark red-brown as it ages, and is fine and even textured. Sapele glues and finishes well and has good natural lustre.