Brazilian rosewood in the u.s. To become illegal

[cspencer]

Tony Rice uses Tortoise shell picks

[ecguitar44]

Originally Posted by brucefulton

I'm guessing you really believe there are a lot of tortoise shell picks around and that you have one or several, and that you believe they are somehow superior. In fact, there are very few picks made out of "tortoise shell" (actually, severely endangered sea turtles) compared to the number of picks that were sold as such but that were made of other materials, usually synthetic but sometimes from other animal sources.

It's very unlikely you have one let alone several, and they are not easily replaceable. See the Fender article. Most people who think they have genuine tortoise shell picks actually do not.

In any case, sea turtles, from which tortoise shell picks are made, are extremely endangered. If you really are trying to find endangered sea turtle guitar picks of recent manufacture, find a substitute.

In fact, you've probably already found one because what you have is very unlikely to be genuine sea turtle "tortoise shell." But if you do, it's time to trade them in for something else. Sea turtles are best utilized when swimming live in the sea. You don't need them for guitar picks.

1.) The article specifically refers to FENDER brand picks.
2.) You've obviously never used a real tortoise shell pick.
3.) Real tortoise is easily identified.
4.) Please retread the article you posted.

"There is a small chance that those who claim the latter—to have Fender guitar picks made of real tortoiseshell—might actually be correct. It’s pretty unlikely, though, because they’re rare, and there are definite qualifications, as we’ll soon see."

[robj144]

I gave up tortoiseshell a long time ago. I now use only unicorn horn. It's much better.

In all seriousness, I have a SCGC Braz guitar, without papers. I can't sell it now? Do you think SCGC has papers they can send?

[Don Lampson]

Originally Posted by brucefulton

I'm guessing you really believe there are a lot of tortoise shell picks around and that you have one or several, and that you believe they are somehow superior. In fact, there are very few picks made out of "tortoise shell" (actually, severely endangered sea turtles) compared to the number of picks that were sold as such but that were made of other materials, usually synthetic but sometimes from other animal sources.

It's very unlikely you have one let alone several, and they are not easily replaceable. See the Fender article. Most people who think they have genuine tortoise shell picks actually do not.

In any case, sea turtles, from which tortoise shell picks are made, are extremely endangered. If you really are trying to find endangered sea turtle guitar picks of recent manufacture, find a substitute.

In fact, you've probably already found one because what you have is very unlikely to be genuine sea turtle "tortoise shell." But if you do, it's time to trade them in for something else. Sea turtles are best utilized when swimming live in the sea. You don't need them for guitar picks.

I hate to bum the party, but shell picks are certainly not rare as you seem to imagine? In the early 80s I owned a dozen and a half. I bought my first shell pick for 50 cents, in 1955. It was retired in 2005 when the point finally wore down further than I liked using. The friend I gave it to reshaped it, and is still using the almost 60 year old pick.... There is simply nothing like a shell pick for flatpicking, regardless of how "enviornmentally incorrect" they may be?

People make them out of old combs, mirror, and picture frames, found in second hand stores, and yard sales. No Hawksbill turtles are injured. They've been dead for over a hundred years.... Genuine shell picks are frequently sold at bluegrass festivals for $50, and sometimes even more?

There are still plenty of bluegrass guitar, and mandolin players, who use real shell picks. The performers just keep the mouths shut about doing so. I would guess that most of the classic flatpicking songs so admired my many of us were done with genuine shell picks?

Brazilian rosewood, and shell picks, are simply the best materials to use for making guitars, and flatpicking music.... YMMV....

Don

[ecguitar44]

Originally Posted by Don Lampson

I hate to bum the party, but shell picks are certainly not rare as you seem to imagine? In the early 80s I owned a dozen and a half. I bought my first shell pick for 50 cents, in 1955. It was retired in 2005 when the point finally wore down further than I liked using. The friend I gave it to reshaped it, and is still using the almost 60 year old pick.... There is simply nothing like a shell pick for flatpicking, regardless of how "enviornmentally incorrect" they may be?

People make them out of old combs, mirror, and picture frames, found in second hand stores, and yard sales. No Hawksbill turtles are injured. They've been dead for over a hundred years.... Genuine shell picks are frequently sold at bluegrass festivals for $50, and sometimes even more?

There are still plenty of bluegrass guitar, and mandolin players, who use real shell picks. The performers just keep the mouths shut about doing so. I would guess that most of the classic flatpicking songs so admired my many of us were done with genuine shell picks?

Brazilian rosewood, and shell picks, are simply the best materials to use for making guitars, and flatpicking music.... YMMV....

Don

He misread the article he linked. Save your breath.

[MBE]

Originally Posted by robj144

In all seriousness, I have a SCGC Braz guitar, without papers. I can't sell it now? Do you think SCGC has papers they can send?

Since you have a guitar by a currently-operating company, I'm certain you can get a statement from them specific to the serial # of your guitar (ie build date). Shouldn't be much of a problem.

[robj144]

Originally Posted by MBE

Since you have a guitar by a currently-operating company, I'm certain you can get a statement from them specific to the serial # of your guitar (ie build date). Shouldn't be much of a problem.

Is it enough just to have a build date? Shouldn't the documentation verify the wood was acquired pre-CITES? Thanks for the response, by the way.

[cspencer]

Originally Posted by ecguitar44

He misread the article he linked. Save your breath.

Misleading? Misconceptions? Or simply can't read?

[LionEyes]

So is now the time to be buying a guitar made with Brazilian, or to be selling?

[Simon Fay]

I'm trying to make sense of this news and have some calls into the FWS. But if Chuck (the OP) is correct, then 99% of the Brazilian RW guitars made in the past 15 years will be worthless (unless you want to risk selling on the black market).

Somebody made the comment that this is a good thing because builders should have the paperwork. Let me clarify, the certification process is a nightmare and a ridiculous artifact of incompetent bureaucracy. The CITES master file costs about $300 and then you have to renew every few years. Are they seriously asking builders to do that for every bridge blank and head plate???? I have some Brazilian that is completely legal (I know the source and it was cut here in America in the 60's) but since I didn't want to mess with the paperwork needed for export, I knew I could always use it for customers within our borders. However, this new ban changes that. This new reg does not honor legacy practice even for those who purchased ethically and legally. For example, I never "imported" Brazilian RW into the country but always bought material from folks who found very old existing stockpiles.

Part of me is happy because this will effectively solve the problem with Brazilian RW. However, I am incredibly frustrated that the government is essentially robbing artisans of ethically and legally acquired Brazilian and making those investments worthless.

If they wanted to stop illegal Brazilian RW -- how about not allowing any Brazilian RW into or out of the country (even with legal CITES paperwork). Sure, some of it would get smuggled in but it would a huge part of the problem would be eliminated. Or how about giving a 2 to 3 year time limit for using existing material and turning it into a commercial product. After the deadline, no more new instruments could be sold with Brazilian RW but old instruments with Brazilian RW could still be bought and sold -- that would protect the artisans and also the American customers who've bought expensive Brazilian RW guitars recently. Everybody is getting screwed over with this new regulation.

[cspencer]

Originally Posted by LionEyes

So is now the time to be buying a guitar made with Brazilian, or to be selling?

I'll buy. But it has to be cheap or you'll have to give it to me when the law kicks in

[Laurent Brondel]

What the great majority of luthiers have in their woodshed is old growth Brazilian rosewood, .i.e. wood that has been in the US for a long time, or reclaimed wood from building resawed into sets and blanks. In any case, trees that have been cut a long time ago for the most part (there is also quite a lot of stumpwood, the bases of trees cut long ago that have been reclaimed).

New growth can easily be recognized as it usually looks lackluster, mostly pale brown, little figure and hard to come by in quartersawn sets as the trees are usually small.

However, the regulations, as for elephant ivory and tortoise shell for example, seem to go toward a zero tolerance philosophy.
The thinking is that any use of Brazilian rosewood encourages more poaching.
That completely ignores the importance of historical artefacts, for example, or the presence of old stocks owned by artisans and shops.
The US and French governments very publicly destroyed elephant ivory seized by customs a few months ago, as an illustration of this zero tolerance policy.
Needless to point out, there is a fair amount of political demagogy and wishful thinking in all this.

In any case whereas one agrees with that philosophy makes no difference, it is what it is.
The important question is, how is this going to be enforced, and with what level of priority? My guess is it's too early to tell, but if anyone is informed, it would be nice to have some inside information.

[DRodgers]

Originally Posted by Simon Fay

I'm trying to make sense of this news and have some calls into the FWS. But if Chuck (the OP) is correct, then 99% of the Brazilian RW guitars made in the past 15 years will be worthless (unless you want to risk selling on the black market).

Somebody made the comment that this is a good thing because builders should have the paperwork. Let me clarify, the certification process is a nightmare and a ridiculous artifact of incompetent bureaucracy. The CITES master file costs about $300 and then you have to renew every few years. Are they seriously asking builders to do that for every bridge blank and head plate???? I have some Brazilian that is completely legal (I know the source and it was cut here in America in the 60's) but since I didn't want to mess with the paperwork needed for export, I knew I could always use it for customers within our borders. However, this new ban changes that. This new reg does not honor legacy practice even for those who purchased ethically and legally. For example, I never "imported" Brazilian RW into the country but always bought material from folks who found very old existing stockpiles.

Part of me is happy because this will effectively solve the problem with Brazilian RW. However, I am incredibly frustrated that the government is essentially robbing artisans of ethically and legally acquired Brazilian and making those investments worthless.

If they wanted to stop illegal Brazilian RW -- how about not allowing any Brazilian RW into or out of the country (even with legal CITES paperwork). Sure, some of it would get smuggled in but it would a huge part of the problem would be eliminated. Or how about giving a 2 to 3 year time limit for using existing material and turning it into a commercial product. After the deadline, no more new instruments could be sold with Brazilian RW but old instruments with Brazilian RW could still be bought and sold -- that would protect the artisans and also the American customers who've bought expensive Brazilian RW guitars recently. Everybody is getting screwed over with this new regulation.

Bingo!!!! My thoughts exactly and I can't even afford BRW.

[Gasworker]

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucefulton
Sea turtles are best utilized when swimming live in the sea.

Why mankind would look at a turtle and think "hmm that that creature would make a great guitar pick" is lost on some people. To some people a turtle best utilized when swimming in the sea is a waste of a perfectly good turtle. Unless you need to win I say your facts may be inaccurate to some but your point has been made.

[dwstout]

Originally Posted by HHP

Maybe we should consider amnesty for all Brazilian that has been in the US for several years. We could crate a "pathway to legal tonewood" so that Brazilian that aspires to becomes a great guitar has the opportunity to do so instead of being in the shadows of instrument making. Place like Nazareth, PA could declare themselves "sanctuary cities" for undocumented (we shouldn't use the term illegal) rosewood.

Keep your politics out the forum ... please.