#136
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#137
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All the woods mentioned are so similar in performance that I believe nobody could distinguish them in a blind listening test. And other than sapele (which has a more defined, narrower ribbon stripe when quartered), i doubt that most could distinguish them based on appearance. The reason the big manufacturers change the species of 'mahogany' being used from time to time is simple....difficulty in maintaining a consistent supply of quality material. The current situation with Honduran mahogany is grim....lower quality and less availability each and every year for the past 25 years or so. Martin used African mahogany (khaya) in the 1970's for backs and sides, which was confirmed by Linda Davis-Wallen. I have also seen Philippine 'mahogany' (lauan) necks on Martins in the early-1920's. Unlike the other woods mentioned, lauan is not even in the same family. . |
#138
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The taxonomic term, family, is so broad as to include trees, shrubs and flowering plants sometimes with no obvious relationship to each other. |
#139
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Yes, but it can mean other things too. What Martin calls True Mahogany, Select Mahogany, or just Mahogany includes all species of the larger botanical Mahogany family, Meliaceae. So far that includes the following:
Sapele Entandrophragma cylindricum (tropical Africa) Utile or Sipo, Entandrophragma utile (tropical Africa) African Mahogany Khaya ivorensis (tropical Africa) Spanish cedar Cedrela odorata (Central and South America) As John says, that term only refers to Honduran mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla) at Martin. Quote:
It depends on the Series too. While the GE's were listed with "Select Hardwood" necks, I never saw one that wasn't mahogany. Martin also uses necks with wings on the headstock and two-piece necks now. Wood availability is a problem. That is correct. |
#140
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There is more to a guitar than tone and playability. For example, a lot of us have an attachment to the guitars our musical heroes played when we were kids. Now that I can actually afford some of them, I would like to get one, even if I could spend less and get something that is otherwise similar in tone. I don't care if some wood sounds just like Mahogany or looks like Mahogany. If I think I am buying Mahogany guitar, I want a Mahogany guitar. Edit: I deleted some of the original content of this post because I hate to have this thread get locked. IMO, the discussion of what materials well known guitar models are actually made of is important information, and someone new to guitars who does not already know this stuff can learn a lot from these threads. Myself, I was more or less aware that manufacturers were finessing the issue, but was not familiar with all the info in the thread. Some people new to the instrument are not aware that if the description just says "rosewood", for example, it usually really means that there is very little rosewood. Whether that makes a difference to some people or not, it is certainly the kind of thing that belongs on an acoustic guitar discussion board. I would hate for this kind of thread to end up being forbidden, and us all reduced to posting vague hints about the facts while avoiding a forthright discussion of the topic. Last edited by rwmct; 06-07-2017 at 06:11 PM. |
#141
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Like Martin could keep aside a set of Brazilian Rosewood for D-28s only (and not for D-16s), but they will be mostly using East Indian Rosewood for D-28s and maybe once in a blue moon use Brazilian Rosewood for a special edition D-28. It would be good to get clarification on what "keeping it aside for dovetailed neck guitars" means: 1.They only use Genuine Mahogany for dovetailed neck guitars, and do not use any True Mahogany for dovetailed neck guitars. 2. Genuine Mahogany is simply kept aside for future use for dovetailed neck guitars, but is not currently being used. 3. They use both Genuine Mahogany and True Mahogany for dovetailed neck guitars. If this is the case, it would be good to know the Genuine : True Mahogany ratio being used on D-18s, for example. |
#142
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__________________
Barry My SoundCloud page Avalon L-320C, Guild D-120, Martin D-16GT, McIlroy A20, Pellerin SJ CW Cordobas - C5, Fusion 12 Orchestra, C12, Stage Traditional Alvarez AP66SB, Seagull Folk Aria {Johann Logy}: Last edited by TBman; 06-07-2017 at 10:29 PM. |
#143
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I don't see what playing time or skill level has to do with the topic. If I was holding forth on the musical qualities of these tonewoods, I can see why you might raise that point (though some novices have marvelous "ears." I am not one of them). But I am not claiming to be able to tell the difference, tone wise. I am saying that I want to know what my guitars are made of, and am not happy with the way the manufacturers try to finesse that point, often in language that is intended to give a buyer the impression that they are made of something they are not, in fact, made off.
Last edited by rwmct; 06-08-2017 at 05:36 AM. |
#144
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As guitar nerds we all get silly sometimes, lol.
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Barry My SoundCloud page Avalon L-320C, Guild D-120, Martin D-16GT, McIlroy A20, Pellerin SJ CW Cordobas - C5, Fusion 12 Orchestra, C12, Stage Traditional Alvarez AP66SB, Seagull Folk Aria {Johann Logy}: |
#145
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I like khaya and I think it is mahogany
My Larrivee P-05 mahogany gloss parlor has a solid khaya dovetail neck and solid khaya back and sides. I can't tell much difference between khaya and Honduran mahogany, in looks or sound. I know Larrivee gets its khaya logs from seriously old-growth trees, logs which are often more than 5' in diameter (as seen in a Larrivee video of Jean's trip to Africa). The quartersawn khaya Larrivee uses is top notch. Combine that with Larrivee's superior builds and you get some very sweet guitars for a good price. Yes, of course I would like a '50s Gibson J-50 in mint condition, with Honduran mahogany, but, short of that, I'll take my Larrivees. I also have a Larrivee L-04 (basically an L-03R w/gloss top) that is sublime.
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2015 Larrivee L-04 2016 Larrivee P-05 2015 Norman B20 1987 MIJ Fender Telecaster |
#146
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Just got off the phone with Rob at Martin about this
I've got a 000-15SM on the way from Martin as I've been A/B-ing a 12 fret Mahogany Guitar for a while. It compared favorably to my ear with a Taylor 522 12 fret. Learned Martin uses several species of Mahogany woods to build the 15 series, so to get a better understanding I called Martin and spoke with Rob.
He said: It will most likely be Sapele, but it could be African Mahogany or South American. The Sapele will be easy to see as it has more pronounced striping. The African will be about the same color and texture as the South American, but will have a less deep look to it. In terms of hardness, and therefore how much high end is produced, it goes (from soft to hard) South American, African, Sapele. That being said, all are much softer then Rosewood, and there is variation within each species. The tops will be of the same species as the back and sides. I'm hoping purely for aesthetic reasons I get a dark, even grained, South American or African Mahogany example. But, I'm not overly concerned as it was the sound (and I'll admit a bit of the simple retro vibe) I was buying, not a specific wood. Scott
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Scott Three things we can't replace: Time, Family and Integrity |