Honest Opinion/vs. "Taylor bashing"

rgregg48 · #1 07-07-2003, 09:45 PM

It seems to me that people on this forum are here because
they have a strong interest in Taylor guitars, and/or just like
the product.
There have been some threads questioning some of the product
reliability (ES seems to be the easiest to pick on lately,
Nothing mean spirited, and it seemed to have a clarification attached (im not Taylor bashing, etc)
It seems to me, that if you have people that like Taylors enough
to spend time on this forum... not only is praise for Taylors
quality and innovation welcome,, it would seem that it is not
only option, but almost an obligation to voice things that you
think might need improvement...and thats not bashing..
I think true bashing, is very obvious in its tone, and most of the
time, i dont see that here..
again,, just my opinion, usual disclaimers apply.
Rick

allen414 · #2 07-07-2003, 09:59 PM

i got the same feeling from that thread. it seemed like a knee jerk reaction to call it bashing, but to be honest didn't surprise me. In defense of this bulletin board though, it remained civil and the tone of the thread improved.

do some people here wear rose colored glasses when it comes to Taylor. Of course, and some wear those same glasses in other situations, IMHO.

I'm new to guitars, but I had a problem with my ES when it came in, I may be new, but I'm not stupid. Should Taylor have done more testing? I think so. There seem to be a lot of grounding issues, and that is not a good thing.

Are the new tuners better? Or cheaper? Look at the economy right now. Most changes are going to be made in a time like this to cut costs, not improve the product. Maybe they're better, or just as good, but I bet they're cheaper. Taylor may be a private company, but they're still in business to make money. They are a great company, and have stellar customer service, but they're not beyond criticism.

I'll continue to call it like I see it. I love Taylors, but I'll always be open to other geetars too.

Jeff M · #3 07-08-2003, 12:43 AM

Many months ago I posted a thread over at the Martin Forum posing the question why does Martin send out it's guitars with what for many is a relatively high action, comparing it to Taylors more "user friendly" action. About 20% of the replies were rather indignant that I should question Martin Guitar Co. (I own 3 Martins).
At any brand name forum you will have those who confuse their own identity with that of the guitar they like, taking any constructive criticism as a direct insult. If you look at the majority of people who visit the forum rather than the relative few who post the "loudest", you will see that many are open minded about discussing issues like the ES system.

meridian · #4 07-08-2003, 07:53 AM

There was (is) a thread about the ES that says it isn't "Taylor bashing" but then goes on to extend that one person's bad experience to the whole line and call it all crap.

That is frustration, not really bashing, but also is false logical extension.

Bashing is when there is no logic (false or true), just venom for its own sake IMO.

Splatt · #5 07-08-2003, 08:30 AM

No business is beyond criticism as some point or other especially those as large as Taylor and dealing with (now) a large customer base.

Problems are bound to happen and while something like the ES system seems like a classic example of the marketing people wanting to get the product out before it's finished at least Taylor have done something to rectify the problem as quickly as possible(unlike some companies who i'll not name... that just choose to ignore problems and defend their product to the point of even removing negative posts on forums and kicking off people who have had the cheek to post something negative about a product!).

At the end of the day... negative posts are just as good for Taylor as are the positive ones... If Bob (or the other Taylor guys regularly read this forum) then such as source of feedback is surely invaluable.

C C · #6 07-08-2003, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Splatt

At the end of the day... negative posts are just as good for Taylor as are the positive ones... If Bob (or the other Taylor guys regularly read this forum) then such as source of feedback is surely invaluable.

Amen. If I were Bob Taylor I would want various people on my staff to be reading this forum on a regular basis as I'm sure he does.

Hondo · #7 07-08-2003, 08:47 AM

All of this, of course, is my opinion.

To say "I had problems with my ES" and explain what happened is certainly not bashing. To tell how Taylor did or didn't handle the problem to your satisfaction is not bashing, either.

I think bashing begins when BT and all of Taylor is condemned for not testing the system until no flaws could be found - ever. This is impossible to do. No matter how extensive the testing, there are always going to be flaws (resisting the temptation to do a little preaching). I'm sure Taylor could have waited longer to release the system, but would it have made any difference?

I do real estate appraisal. I do an extensive search for information before I give an opinion of value. Have I uncovered all the information that exists concerning the property I'm studying? Maybe, maybe not. But the time comes when time constraints and economics demand an opinion. If information surfaces I haven't considered, then I'll go back and reexamine. But I have to be confident my research is sufficient to render an informed opinion.

In relating this to the ES, there is no way Taylor could test every possible scenario, as there will always be some situation somewhere they didn't imagine. There comes a time when the producer of the goods has to say "this will do" and then put it out on the market. When new information has surfaced, they've reacted. I don't know how you can ask them to do more, except pay the shipping.

Bashing is also calling everyone who bought an ES-equipped Taylor stupid because they didn't wait for the impossible - a perfect system.

As I have stated previously, mine has worked fine from day one.

I think I'd have been stupid to let a very small percentage of flaws keep me from enjoying the sound I get from my amplified Taylor.

I would love for Hos to post an update of the number of ES-equipped Taylors sold vs. the number returned.

areed · #8 07-08-2003, 09:16 AM

Very well stated Hondo.

Most execs will tell you go with 80% of what you think you should know. That of course is subjective, and as someone on another thread put it 'your mileage will vary’.

Also, one should not confuse anger and frustration with the willful trashing of a person or product.

As for my own personal problem with the ES on my guitar, one of my own electronic engineers is taking cursory look at the components, since I don’t have the luxury of sending the guitar back for repair. I told him he had one day only! The 414 sounds great acoustically and the two times I was able to use ES, it also sounded great.

meridian · #9 07-08-2003, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by areed
As for my own personal problem with the ES on my guitar, one of my own electronic engineers is taking cursory look at the components, since I don’t have the luxury of sending the guitar back for repair. I told him he had one day only! The 414 sounds great acoustically and the two times I was able to use ES, it also sounded great.

You might be able to get Taylor to ship replacement ES parts to you. I don't actually know this, but it is worth a phone call or a letter.

Plexiprs · #10 07-08-2003, 10:00 AM

I think Merdian and Hondo really defined it, for me at least. To start a thread off with something akin to, "I just bought a new XXXXXX, and I am frustrated/unhappy/torqued", is the way to vent your frustration and get some help and suggestions from members here.

Declaratory statements about what a business, engineer, or whoever, did or didn't do, should be prefaced with how you came to learn those facts, or that it is your opinion (IMHO).

Some remember historically, that the TGF had frequent "drop-in" visitors who initiated unsubstantiated, and blatant bashing, just to get a rise from the members. They would watch the fireworks and then melt into the night.

The "it's true cause I say it", just doesn't play well with me, and I've noticed that others don't receive it well.

I've also noticed that the members here are not exclusive to playing and buying Taylor guitars. They have also demonstrated a reluctance to engage in unsupported critical discourse about many other brands and makers. I like that, as the goal should be to share knowledge, experience, and opinions.

This forum along with www.frets.com were the deciding factors when I came to seek out my first Taylor. Now if they could only cure the TAS.

Fingerworks · #11 07-08-2003, 10:03 AM

Why are some folks so sensitive about non-positive comments regarding Taylor guitars? I don't get it, do they feel that by acknowledging that problems exist that it somehow affects them personally????

Like everyone else here I'm passionate about my music and my guitars. I love my Taylor and feel it’s the finest instrument I’ve ever owned. It's nice to hear good news like this but it's also vitally important to surface problems, when they exist, so that they can be resolved. Hopefully the folks at Taylor are tuned in and take notice of what's said here. I'm not condoning out-right bashing (that's a stupid waste of time), but we all should feel free to express our concerns whenever there is an issue that needs to be discussed.

leeasam · #12 07-08-2003, 10:51 AM

I understand frustration and nothing is perfect all the time. Expressing opinions is everyone right but I have seen these opinions come to the point of acusing a product was realeased too soo or junk and taylor knew it- well that then is implying what one believes is a FACT and has nothing to back it up it becomes bashing. I had a DOA on my first 810CES but was replaced by another guitar right away. Some have had less than acceptable experiences and have a right to air out their frustrations but don`t make acusations that taylor kinew things and the product is junk or not worthy then one is even though stating an opinion is bashing.
Lee

Jim · #13 07-08-2003, 11:19 AM

I experience both fawning and flaming to be equally annoying and unproductive.

I appreciate well made products since there are too few of them around these days. I believe Taylors are one of these well done products and I have responded by buying several of their higher end guitars. I also believe there are some other equally well done brands of guitars and I am quick to praise them and buy them as well.

I also believe that there is a balance between perfection and reality and that any company that hopes to "make it" has to find the right place between these two goals. I believe Bob and Kurt have done better than most, but I also believe that there are places where improvements could be made. Since I have a fair amount of management training and experience I am not shy about pointing out these issues and explaining why I believe specific changes would be improvements of the perfection/reality balance.

I agree completely that some people get confused with identification of their choice of purchases of things with their identification of themselves. Flaming is one sign of this, but so is fawning. I'm not perfect and I don't always succeed but when I give praise or criticism I always try to be constructive in either by saying "I like this BECAUSE . . ." or "I don't like this BECAUSE . . . " since it signals that what I am trying to say is about the thing and not ad hominem.

It can be very hard for someone to hear criticism of any kind, but I think that the wisest people will always appreciate constructive praise or criticism the most since that is the basis for learning and improvement. It is like when JR put up a separate post requesting people to be as honest as they could be in answering a set of questions about the planned Forum Guitars. His asking for people's unvarnished feelings was an indication he is a person who understands what management is all about and my hat is off to him for it. As I read though the various responses I saw not the slightest trace of flaming at all - everyone was giving their honest assessment of this worthwhile project, espressing their gratitude and appreciation for his hard work by giving him practical and usable feedback.

I don't know how Bob and Kurt view this forum, but I would hope they value highly that praise and criticism that include the word "BECAUSE" and pay special attention to the words that follow as they move their company forward. If those letters to the editor in Wood and Steel are any indication of what they normally get as feedback, I think they could use a source of honest and fair feedback.

Noflatpick · #14 07-08-2003, 11:27 AM

Right on, number 12.

#13

muzz76 · #15 07-08-2003, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim
I experience both fawning and flaming to be equally annoying and unproductive.

I appreciate well made products since there are too few of them around these days. I believe Taylors are one of these well done products and I have responded by buying several of their higher end guitars. I also believe there are some other equally well done brands of guitars and I am quick to praise them and buy them as well.

I also believe that there is a balance between perfection and reality and that any company that hopes to "make it" has to find the right place between these two goals. I believe Bob and Kurt have done better than most, but I also believe that there are places where improvements could be made. Since I have a fair amount of management training and experience I am not shy about pointing out these issues and explaining why I believe specific changes would be improvements of the perfection/reality balance.

I agree completely that some people get confused with identification of their choice of purchases of things with their identification of themselves. Flaming is one sign of this, but so is fawning. I'm not perfect and I don't always succeed but when I give praise or criticism I always try to be constructive in either by saying "I like this BECAUSE . . ." or "I don't like this BECAUSE . . . " since it signals that what I am trying to say is about the thing and not ad hominem.

It can be very hard for someone to hear criticism of any kind, but I think that the wisest people will always appreciate constructive praise or criticism the most since that is the basis for learning and improvement. It is like when JR put up a separate post requesting people to be as honest as they could be in answering a set of questions about the planned Forum Guitars. His asking for people's unvarnished feelings was an indication he is a person who understands what management is all about and my hat is off to him for it. As I read though the various responses I saw not the slightest trace of flaming at all - everyone was giving their honest assessment of this worthwhile project, espressing their gratitude and appreciation for his hard work by giving him practical and usable feedback.

I don't know how Bob and Kurt view this forum, but I would hope they value highly that praise and criticism that include the word "BECAUSE" and pay special attention to the words that follow as they move their company forward. If those letters to the editor in Wood and Steel are any indication of what they normally get as feedback, I think they could use a source of honest and fair feedback.

Well said Jim