# Frets to body & Scale Length

ncognito1 · #1 09-12-2010, 12:20 PM

I'm interested in learning how these two build factors, in different combinations, effect tone. Also, how difficult is it to adjust to (for example) two guitars with different frets to the body join configurations?

DAVE

HHP · #2 09-12-2010, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ncognito1

I'm interested in learning how these two build factors, in different combinations, effect tone. Also, how difficult is it to adjust to (for example) two guitars with different frets to the body join configurations?

DAVE

Those factors, in and of themselves, have little difference on sound. Other factors associated with them like body size, shape, materials, and construction will have a vast impact on sound. Switching between 12 and 14 fret bodies a or scale differences is no problem for me but I do note others have great difficulty making the same changes.

Shabby Chic · #3 09-12-2010, 01:03 PM

Where the bridge is placed has a very large impact on tone. All other things being equal, the closer to the center of the soundboard the saddle is (in relation to the big brace under the fingerboard to the tailblock), the more efficiently the top can act as an air pump and so the better the bass response. The further from this sweet spot the worse the bass response but the better the guitar will project.

A traditional Martin Drednought 25.4" scale 14 fret design puts the saddle very close to this center, while a 12 fret design moves it close to the butt.

A 12 fret design will put the lower frets closer to your body when you play which can be more comfortable.

geordie · #4 09-12-2010, 01:42 PM

hi ncognito1,
go and try some guitars, shops are full of them for that reason, then you can tell us.
It's not astrophysics - it's just this type sounds like this and that type sounds like that and 12 fret to body feels like it's got two less frets - up the neck than a fourteen.
Have more confidentin your self.

g-o

ncognito1 · #5 09-12-2010, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geordie

hi ncognito1,
go and try some guitars, shops are full of them for that reason, then you can tell us.
It's not astrophysics - it's just this type sounds like this and that type sounds like that and 12 fret to body feels like it's got two less frets - up the neck than a fourteen.
Have more confidentin your self.

g-o

Geordie--

I don't appreciate the lecture. If you have something constructive to add based on your own experience, I'd be grateful.

12 fret to the body guitars are not all that common. I have tried a few (three that immediately come to mind). In general, I like the tone, but haven't yet had the pleasure of playing one with a cutaway. For my approach, the cutaway would be much more freeing because I like having access to the whole fretboard.

DAVE

geordie · #6 09-12-2010, 04:44 PM

hey Dave,
yeah 12 fret c/away is the way to go, in fact I've drawn up plans and it's going to be my next build.
Your on the right track.
Geordie

sayheyjeff · #7 09-12-2010, 05:04 PM

As an owner of 3 12 fret guitars, I feel like I ought to be able to answer your questions with some authority, but its a little difficult to offer A/B comparisons. Can tell you I got into 12 frets as they are so comfortable for me to hold and play. I have read plenty about the movement of the bridge and can tell you all 3 of mine sound full and rich. I have been particularly focused on the Martin Simpson lately and it is not just fun to play, it has a great sound. Plenty of base for me. I play exclusively with a flatpick and my most regular playing partner plays Martin dreds. My guitar holds its own in terms of volume and bass. I have one 14 fret guitar and it is a little Gibson LG1. Its a small guitar and has a 1 1/16 nut width. Very different from the others. I dont really play all that fast that switching guitars would slow me down, but I can say switching between guitars is not a problem for me.

12 fret guitars are worth a serious look in my opinion, and unless one plays a lot way up the neck, I don't know the reason for going to a 14 fretter (although there could be many good reasons I am unaware of). By the way, the Martin Simpson is a cutaway and reaching up the neck is not a problem.

jeff

ncognito1 · #8 09-12-2010, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geordie

hey Dave,
yeah 12 fret c/away is the way to go, in fact I've drawn up plans and it's going to be my next build.
Your on the right track.
Geordie

Thanks, Geordie. By the way, I like your fingerpicking style on the 12 string.

DAVE

redcloud · #9 09-12-2010, 06:59 PM

Taylor now has a standard 12 fret guitar and I suspect they will be stocking them soon. They are very nice guitars to play.

Scott

Ed422 · #10 09-12-2010, 07:59 PM

It seems there are (basically) two approaches to 12 fret guitars. Most Martin (and clone) 12 fret guitars a have the bridge pretty much in the same place as a similar sized 14 fret guitar but with an elongated upper bout and other manufacturers shift the bridge farther towards the center of the lower bout. In the first case, the body is a bit larger, i.e. longer which results in a higher volume box, more cubic inches. In the 2nd case, the focus of the vibration is in a more open part of the lower bout. Bracing patterns and builder play into it, but similar tone but louder or accentuating lower frequencies is possible in 12 fret guitars.

Very generalized, for sure.

Scale length affects string tension... which can also be affected by string gauge. This can and typically will affect tone. All of these factors can (and probably will) also affect ergonomics.

Ed

ncognito1 · #11 09-12-2010, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sayheyjeff

As an owner of 3 12 fret guitars, I feel like I ought to be able to answer your questions with some authority, but its a little difficult to offer A/B comparisons. Can tell you I got into 12 frets as they are so comfortable for me to hold and play. I have read plenty about the movement of the bridge and can tell you all 3 of mine sound full and rich. I have been particularly focused on the Martin Simpson lately and it is not just fun to play, it has a great sound. Plenty of base for me. I play exclusively with a flatpick and my most regular playing partner plays Martin dreds. My guitar holds its own in terms of volume and bass. I have one 14 fret guitar and it is a little Gibson LG1. Its a small guitar and has a 1 1/16 nut width. Very different from the others. I dont really play all that fast that switching guitars would slow me down, but I can say switching between guitars is not a problem for me.

12 fret guitars are worth a serious look in my opinion, and unless one plays a lot way up the neck, I don't know the reason for going to a 14 fretter (although there could be many good reasons I am unaware of). By the way, the Martin Simpson is a cutaway and reaching up the neck is not a problem.

jeff

Jeff, and everyone else--

The 12 fretters I've tried have all been short scale. Do standard (25.5") scale length 12 fretters exist? I would speculate that if there is such a thing, it would, because of the greater string tension, be able to handle lower tunings better. If there is such a beast, do you lose that "sweet spot" tone that 12 fretters are known for, with the longer scale?

DAVE

Ed422 · #12 09-12-2010, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ncognito1

Jeff, and everyone else--

The 12 fretters I've tried have all been short scale. Do standard (25.5") scale length 12 fretters exist? I would speculate that if there is such a thing, it would, because of the greater string tension, be able to handle lower tunings better. If there is such a beast, do you lose that "sweet spot" tone that 12 fretters are known for, with the longer scale?

DAVE

Slope shoulder D's, Martin 000-xxS, etc. are 12 fret "standard" scale. Another option is to change string gauges, and even customize sets to get the tensions you like.

Ed

fatt-dad · #13 09-12-2010, 09:37 PM

the Martin 12 fret guitars in the 15 and 16 series are long scale. You can't get a 15 or 16 series Martin in short scale.

+1 to the comment on 12 fret guitars related to body length. Basically 12 fret guitars have a body that is 2 frets longer.

The Martin 000-28 Norman Blake is the odd ball in the Martin lineup, it has a conventional OM body size, with a short scale, 12 fret neck, this has an effect on the bridge placement and offers a different dynamic on the overall guitar tone (I have one of these and love it).

My 12 fret Gibson is just a small, short-scale, lightweight guitar and is something totally different.

The 000-15S (12 fret long scale Martin) is very good for open D or Dm tuning.

f-d

f-d

sayheyjeff · #14 09-12-2010, 09:56 PM

Neither my 00017s or my Bourgeois Martin Simpson 12 fretters and short scale guitars. Others with more knowledge and experience than me can kick in, but my sense is tone wise, they can handle most anything an equivalent 14 fretter can. I can't tell you just how much I like these guitars since I have been able to play them with medium or bluegrass strings, and I have been able to play with heavier picks. Really, they have 'raised the bar' for me.

jeff

Tone Gopher · #15 09-13-2010, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ncognito1

12 fret to the body guitars are not all that common.

They are the dominant style in my house - all with cutaways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ncognito1

I have tried a few (three that immediately come to mind). In general, I like the tone, but haven't yet had the pleasure of playing one with a cutaway. For my approach, the cutaway would be much more freeing because I like having access to the whole fretboard.

You don't have access to the whole fretboard with a 14-fretter. It's a matter of what you are more familiar with. If you play slide and use the body as a position reminder, you'll have some changes to make.

If you do choose a 12-fretter with a cutaway, you may still have some access issues depending on the geometry of the cutaway and the position of your forearm.