Proper way to measure action

Originally Posted by murrmac123

Without prior measurement, it becomes guesswork IMO, and a drawn-out iterative process of trial and error, stringing and destringing, which I personally would find intolerable.

I agree. Measure twice, sand once.

[devellis]

Telling a tech how you want a guitar to feel seems pretty non-communicative. I think the verbal descriptions would go something like, "easy to fret but without string buzzing" for a pretty large proportion of customers.

What's more useful is to establish a correspondence between the imprecise term, "feel" and the far-more-precise measurements that we can easily obtain. Once that relationship has been established, then a more objective criterion can be used to achieve a subjectively pleasing result. Neither the concept of "feel" nor some arbitrary numerical value like 6/64 have optimal utility until they're paired. (The numbers on their own may have greater utility to the extent that they represent a value widely found to "feel" right but may not be optimal for any given player.) Once we can quantify the subjective state of a guitar's action feeling the way we like, we have a basis for more precise communication. Of course, if someone always does their own set-ups that may be unnecessary. But as a recommendation for others who may not do all their own guitar work, I think establishing the numbers that correspond to the action that is preferred is a very useful idea.

[5th Element]

I had endless difficulties with a shop that used a front-end person to ask descriptive questions. Two out of three times, it took multiple trips, and I gave up before they ever got the third one right.

In frustration, I learned to do a lot of things myself. When I need work done now, I simply tell my current tech the exact action height and that's what I get.

Also, when measuring the action, I believe it's good to capo at the first fret. This takes the nut out of the equation. Nut slots are higher than the first fret. The impact on measurements may be minimal, but it's there. Either way, if using objective measurements to communicate with a tech, both parties should use the same measurement techniques.

Originally Posted by 5th Element

Also, when measuring the action, I believe it's good to capo at the first fret. This takes the nut out of the equation. Nut slots are higher than the first fret. The impact on measurements may be minimal, but it's there. Either way, if using objective measurements to communicate with a tech, both parties should use the same measurement techniques.

Not on my guitars.

FWIW, I take rough measurements with a 6" ruler, and use feeler gauges or calipers for measuring more precisely. I do this at the 12th fret only. I never measure action height at the first fret, but I do set the nut slots to fret height as already noted. I measure relief with a stainless straightedge spanning the 1st fret to the body joint fret and feeler gauges.

We measure so that we can better understand what works, what doesn't, and how to repeat it. Quantifying things like this also helps us to share information.

[5th Element]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

Not on my guitars.

FWIW, I take rough measurements with a 6" ruler, and use feeler gauges or calipers for measuring more precisely. I do this at the 12th fret only. I never measure action height at the first fret, but I do set the nut slots to fret height as already noted. I measure relief with a stainless straightedge spanning the 1st fret to the body joint fret and feeler gauges.

We measure so that we can better understand what works, what doesn't, and how to repeat it. Quantifying things like this also helps us to share information.

Agreed in principle. I've yet to see a nut cut properly at the factory, and this usually is the first order of business with a new guitar. Isn't it common to leave about 0.002" of clearance (un-fretted) at the first fret?

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by Vagabond14

When measuring action at the 12th fret is it proper to first press the string down onto the first fret or to just leave the string open?

Depends on who you ask. A capo on the first fret eliminates variability from the nut slots, and allows action to be set prior to setting the nut slot heights. I don't do it that way, but there are esteemed repairmen that do.

I don't see that it makes much difference, as long as you always do it the same way.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by 5th Element

Isn't it common to leave about 0.002" of clearance (un-fretted) at the first fret?

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by that ... no tech with any kind of savvy ever takes clearance at the first fret as a parameter for a set-up.

If you are trying to say that there should be a gap of .002" between the underside of the string and the top of the first fret, while the string is open (unfretted) then the answer is no ... the gap will be more than that even with the lowest possible action.

[hesson11]

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

Depends on who you ask. A capo on the first fret eliminates variability from the nut slots, and allows action to be set prior to setting the nut slot heights. I don't do it that way, but there are esteemed repairmen that do.

I don't see that it makes much difference, as long as you always do it the same way.

This is what respected classical luthier Kenny Hill does for the same reasons Rodger stated.
-Bob

[5th Element]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by that ... no tech with any kind of savvy ever takes clearance at the first fret as a parameter for a set-up.

If you are trying to say that there should be a gap of .002" between the underside of the string and the top of the first fret, while the string is open (unfretted) then the answer is no ... the gap will be more than that even with the lowest possible action.

Maybe you'll find this article by Bryan Kimsey interesting: http://www.bryankimsey.com/nuts/nuts3.htm.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by 5th Element

Maybe you'll find this article by Bryan Kimsey interesting: http://www.bryankimsey.com/nuts/nuts3.htm.

I am well familiar with Bryan's website. I don't see that at any point he states that the clearance at the first fret is .002".

You may well be referring to the technique of pressing the string down between the second and third fret, and sighting the gap at the first fret, but that is not what your earlier post referred to, where you said

Isn't it common to leave about 0.002" of clearance (un-fretted) at the first fret?

.

As I read it, "unfretted" means an open string, and "clearance" means the distance between the underside of the string and the top of the fret, which is always more than .002".

[Vagabond14]

Original Poster here. Wow! Thank you all for your comments on this. My head is spinning a bit. Let me give you guys a bit more detail on why I'm asking this question.

I've owned my Hohner HG04 since college (like 30 years ago) and I'm very attached to it. I think it plays and sounds great. I've had many very good players play it over the years and they all said the same. Its the only one I ever owned. I'm an intermediate player at best and I know nothing about setting up guitars.

I starting playing in earnest again a year ago and decided to take my guitar to a luthier to make sure its as playable as it can be.

When he gave it back it seemed like the action was higher, but I couldn't be sure, and I ignored it at first assuming he knows what he's doing. After a week I decided it was definitely higher than it was before his set-up. I looked online to see what typical action heights are, just to have a reference point. I thought, "Hey, maybe this action height is was most established players have it set to, and I should get used to it".

The guides I found on the Internet said to measure at the 12th fret from bottom of string to top of fret ... with the strings open. I got out feeler gauges and very carefully did my measurements and got the following (which I'm very confident is correct), from Low E (thickest) to High E, in inches: 0.100, 0.096, 0.098, 0.096, 0.096, 0.096. One web site I went to said the following action is typical (at least a good place to start): 0.094, 0.090, 0.086, 0.082, 0.080, 0.078.

"Whoa! that's a big difference, especially on the higher-pitched strings". So I took my guitar back to my local luthier and he said the guitar is fine. When I brought up the action distances I took compared with what I found online he said "Oh, so you read this on the 'Internet'" and rolled his eyes. Then he pressed the strings down onto the first fret and took a measure and showed me that it was about the same as the online numbers. The bottom line is that the high E-string (smallest) is a bit over 1/16 inch fretted at 1st fret, and a bit over 3/32 open. So maybe I was just not measuring correctly.

He said he would lower it if I wanted but "don't come back if it buzzes". I walked out with the guitar as-was and haven't touched it, but after researching some more couldn't find anyone that pressed down the first fret to take the measurement. But even if it is done this way, then the typical action measurements would surely be smaller.

(sigh) So that's my story. I'm considering experimenting and taking the action down myself.

Any comments or advise is welcome.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Vagabond14

Any comments or advise is welcome.

Take your guitar to someone else to have him or her lower the action.

The typical string height measurements given, 3/32" on the bass E, and a little less on the high E, are measured with the strings unfretted, the vertical distance from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the string.

If there are reasons that your guitar can not be set to those string heights, a skilled repair person should be able to address those so that those heights can be achieved on your guitar.

[blindboyjimi]

There are no "right numbers". The measurements you posted are all correct and going by feel is rudimentary yet functional. This is the acoustic guitar internet. You have folks here that are world class players and beginners. You have classically trained folks and self taught "by ear" players. You have bluegrassers that use super thick picks in first position and need to play very hard and loud which requires higher action and bare finger fingerstyle players that play up at the 15th fret and like very low action. You'll get all kinds of advice and none are wrong. For my guitars, I'm accurate. I have 12 and all are set up exactly the same and all "feel" the same. I use the nut slots filed to the first fret height (the relief of the neck puts the nut slightly higher, but the nut should be set to fret height). Minimal relief as in 0.005" ( or just a bit of light under the 7th fret when fretting the 1st and 12/14th) and 0.090" E and 0.060" e. Get yourself a set of feeler gauges for $5 and the Stew Mac action gauge for about $25. They'll last a lifetime.

[justonwo]

I think if you really wanted to be correct about it, you would want to press the first fret and measure at the 12th. That way you take the nut height out of the equation. There are two issues with this, however:

1) very few people do it this way so action measurements will not be transferable to this method. In fact, most people will get confused and/or not know the numbers using this method.

2) the effect of the nut height is pretty minimal at the 12th fret unless the nut height is WAY out of whack.

If you want to do it the way most people do it and have your measurements understood by most other people, measure at the 12th without the first fret depressed.

[murrmac123]

Just FTR, the Stewmac string action gauge might well be a useful adjunct to the kit of accessories which a player might accumulate, but has no value for a professional who needs to work to far finer tolerances than the Stewmac string action gauge can supply.