Proper way to measure action

[Vagabond14]

When measuring action at the 12th fret is it proper to first press the string down onto the first fret or to just leave the string open?

I own a typical full-size acoustic guitar.

Typical guideline numbers are 3/32 for low E-string and 1/16 for high e-string. But is this with the strings fretted at the first fret?

[AndrewG]

I don't measure anything when I do a setup, it's pointless in my opinion. If it feels right, it is right, despite what a manufacturer might recommend. Remember, a manufacturers recommendation is the factory setup, and no one size will fit everyone.

[ChrisE]

I going out on a limb here to say I think you're supposed to measure the RELIEF at the 7th with a capo on the first fret while pressing down on the 14th fret.

I think you measure ACTION at the 12th fret without a capo or pressing any strings down.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, this being the internet and all.

[Wolfram]

Originally Posted by ChrisE

I going out on a limb here to say I think you're supposed to measure the RELIEF at the 7th with a capo on the first fret while pressing down on the 14th fret.

I think you measure ACTION at the 12th fret without a capo or pressing any strings down.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, this being the internet and all.

^^^

This is correct, and the measurement for action is from the bottom of the string to the top of the 12th fret.

Cheers,
David

[beninma]

Measurement is important because if you're going to change something you want to know how much to change.

The 12th fret is the midpoint of the string so it's important because adjustments at the saddle are 2X the desired adjustment at the 12th fret. Multiplying by 2 is easier than some odd fraction/decimal if you measured at a higher/lower fret.

The 7th fret is important for checking relief if the guitar has the neck meeting the body at the 14th fret because the 7th fret is the midpoint of the portion of the fretboard that bends with truss rod adjustments. If I understand correctly the largest change in string -> fretboard distance when adjusting the truss rod occurs at that midpoint.

The 7th fret is not the correct point to measure IIRC if the guitar does not have a neck that meets the body at the 14th fret. For a 12-fret acoustic (I've never had one) I think you would measure at the 6th fret. For some electric guitars like Fenders that have a bolt on neck with a truss rod that affects the entire length of the neck the measurement point is at a fret higher than 7.

If you're filing your nut it's a lot easier to measure things than slowly lower the slots by trial and error. You figure out your target measurement based on the height of the frets, you measure the current height, figure out the difference, and then figure out how much to file the slots down.

All of this is described in detail in numerous books on guitar setup and maintenance.

[Buc-a-Roo]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

I don't measure anything when I do a setup, it's pointless in my opinion. If it feels right, it is right.......

This. Ruler, schmuler.

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by beninma

Measurement is important because if you're going to change something you want to know how much to change.

The 12th fret is the midpoint of the string so it's important because adjustments at the saddle are 2X the desired adjustment at the 12th fret. Multiplying by 2 is easier than some odd fraction/decimal if you measured at a higher/lower fret.

The 7th fret is important for checking relief if the guitar has the neck meeting the body at the 14th fret because the 7th fret is the midpoint of the portion of the fretboard that bends with truss rod adjustments. If I understand correctly the largest change in string -> fretboard distance when adjusting the truss rod occurs at that midpoint.

The 7th fret is not the correct point to measure IIRC if the guitar does not have a neck that meets the body at the 14th fret. For a 12-fret acoustic (I've never had one) I think you would measure at the 6th fret. For some electric guitars like Fenders that have a bolt on neck with a truss rod that affects the entire length of the neck the measurement point is at a fret higher than 7.

If you're filing your nut it's a lot easier to measure things than slowly lower the slots by trial and error. You figure out your target measurement based on the height of the frets, you measure the current height, figure out the difference, and then figure out how much to file the slots down.

All of this is described in detail in numerous books on guitar setup and maintenance.

I've been doing it by eye and feel for decades. I don't need to measure anything, frankly. If the action is too high I lower it until it feels right. A ruler won't tell me that. By the way no truss rod will work over the entire length of a neck, electrics included. Only the central portion is affected with lesser degrees of effect the further you are from the mid-point. At the nut and beyond the neck join there is little or no effect at all.

[rmp]

Guys, honestly, all opinions being equal here, measuring your action is not a useless idea. It tells you a few things that you may want to know about.

like a guitar that has been exposed to too much, or too little humidity. with an acoustic, The top is going to either cave in (too dry) or swell (too wet) these changes can be subtle, but this is going to effect your action and give you a warning that you may need to be more careful on managing the climate.

String changes, different strings could sit differently over the saddle and nut, (coated vs. non-coated for ex) a simple check before/after tells you what the differences are, with out a good measurement ahead of time, you simply will not know why after a string change when trying a new brand, it just doesn't play quite the same. You'll blame it on the strings I guess, but you wont really know WHY...

when it comes to relief, I usually do not measure, I sight down the neck to read the relief, but it only confirms what I'm feeling.. Too spongy, then I know the truss rod probably needs a tug, if I can't get real clean notes in the lower registers, I am pretty sure it needs a bit more relief.

but action, I measure it, and I know exactly where each guitar SHOULD be set, and I will recheck it when I restring,. IMHO it is not a waste of time, it works for me.

Just what I do.. doesn't mean it's right or wrong..

[Silly Moustache]

I am once again at odds with my old friend AndrewG because I am a total OCD nerd about action.

I have a Stewmac string action gauge

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools...ion_Gauge.html

and a set of spark plug feeler gauges (from any motor parts store (but in inches not metric).
I also have a small but strong torch.

From age and experience, I know that my preference on all types of guitar, ALL scale lengths, and whether medium of light strings is consistent.

I like the action at 12th to be .100- .105" bass and .080" on treble with an action of .006" to .008" at '7th (capo at 1st and holding down string at highest fret).

For many years I had a luthier about forty miles away who did the most perfect set-ups but he has moved to Wales but I have recently found another gent about a mile away - and only last week he adjusted my 20 year old Collings and my newest Waterloo to meet my specs exactly.

I can adjust truss rods (I have the right gear for that), but I'm chicken about filing nuts or saddles (I'd kinda like somebody to teach me) - but I'm happy to pay people for their skill and patience (with my guitars AND me).

[beninma]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

I've been doing it by eye and feel for decades. I don't need to measure anything, frankly. If the action is too high I lower it until it feels right. A ruler won't tell me that. By the way no truss rod will work over the entire length of a neck, electrics included. Only the central portion is affected with lesser degrees of effect the further you are from the mid-point. At the nut and beyond the neck join there is little or no effect at all.

Good luck if you needed someone else to work on it for you.

Good luck helping someone new learn to do it themselves without you doing it for them.

If no one ever communicated and everything was done on the spot cottage style we wouldn't even need measurement systems at all.

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by beninma

Good luck if you needed someone else to work on it for you.

Good luck helping someone new learn to do it themselves without you doing it for them.

If no one ever communicated and everything was done on the spot cottage style we wouldn't even need measurement systems at all.

All guitars are different, and even two otherwise identical models may well need slightly different setups in order to feel right-I emphasize 'feel' for a reason. Telling a tech I want so-and-so measured at wherever will not tell me how it will feel.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by Vagabond14

When measuring action at the 12th fret is it proper to first press the string down onto the first fret or to just leave the string open?

I own a typical full-size acoustic guitar.

Typical guideline numbers are 3/32 for low E-string and 1/16 for high e-string. But is this with the strings fretted at the first fret?

Your *basic* guidelines are correct. But no, you leave everything open when measuring string height at the 12th fret.

When setting the neck relief you fret the first and last frets, then measure the distance at the 7th fret. However, I don't measure for neck relief. For that I go entirely by feel. Actually, the final setting for string height as well is by feel, but I do measure it, but just to get an idea of what the height actually is. Typically yes, the 6th string is 6/64ths and the high E just a bit lower.

[ChrisE]

I'm comfortable making adjustments myself to the truss rod and the saddle, but I leave my nuts alone. There's just something about taking a sharp tool to my nuts that makes me nervous.

[beninma]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

All guitars are different, and even two otherwise identical models may well need slightly different setups in order to feel right-I emphasize 'feel' for a reason. Telling a tech I want so-and-so measured at wherever will not tell me how it will feel.

I mostly agree with you, I don't know that I'm ever going to let a tech do a setup for me again anyway, it's mostly a disappointment, but I still think the measurements serve a purpose.

If I was getting a similar guitar and knew I'd want a similar action, I think sight unseen if I let a tech do the setup I'd get a better result if I gave them desired measurements. Otherwise they're just guessing. "Just guessing" is what I've gotten so far when I paid someone else to do it for me, and it seemed like mostly a waste of money.

Only way I'd do it again is if it was someone who let you stay for the setup and they handed it back and forth to you so you could make sure it's right. That'd take a lot longer than a setup based on measurements though, and probably cost a lot.

Way easier to just do it yourself.

[murrmac123]

I am mildly intrigued by the process whereby an acoustic guitar is set up purely by "feel" with no regard for measurement.

When it comes to lowering a saddle, I will have established beforehand the action that my customer wants, and I simply mark the relevant points underneath the E and e strings which indicate the amount to be removed, draw the line and sand the base of the saddle to that line. Without prior measurement, it becomes guesswork IMO, and a drawn-out iterative process of trial and error, stringing and destringing, which I personally would find intolerable.

Life's too short to mess around like that.