Alto or other "shorter scale" 12 string guitars

[Rudy4]

Hi all.
I did a search and there wasn't a lot of topics relating to this, so please feel free to jump in with opinions or personal experience with 12 string instruments that are sometimes referred to as "Alto" scale length, generally tuned a 3rd, 4th, or 5th above standard pitch.

An example would be the Avanti Gryphon (or Veillette Gryphon) 12 string, but other brands / scale length / tuning options are fine, too.

I build everything I play, so all the technical specifications are fine as discussion points, too. I play a variety of mando family instruments from standard mando to octave, so I'm really looking at this as a practical way to expand the range of what I have available to play.

Molly Tuttle demonstrates a Veillette Avanti Gyphon 12:

[AZLiberty]

Tacoma made the Papoose in both 6 and 12-string versions. Those were tuned A-to-A. Not easy to find these days.

Emerald makes the Amicus, which is almost a full octave higher than standard at D-G-C-F-A-D
https://emeraldguitars.com/models/amicus/

[Rudy4]

I noticed that Goldtone also makes a 12 string mando-guitar:

[Rudy4]

Must not be a lot of mando or Alto 12 string players hanging out right now...

[BoxCar_Joe]

FWIW
I have the 6 string version of that GoldTone.
It's hard to play but it has a really interesting sound.
Haven't found a use for it yet.

[brother john]

Hi,
Now that is funny, that's my demo(not Mollys video)
I did a bunch of videos showing fingerpicking on the Mando guitar as there were not a lot of demo's on the instrument and at the time, those that were posted were mainly just strumming. I think Gold Tone changed the spacing after the first batch to make playing easier, you will have to contact Gold Tone to confirm.
It's a unique instrument, in which I loved seeing what I could get out from it. If I was still playing out, I would definitely play it as a change from a listener hearing the guitar all the time. I think Ry Cooder also played one for a couple of tunes during a live show? If I was a recording musician, it would be used for sure.
I love mine, and although do not play it all the time, if I want to just have a change from the guitar, I would pick this, my banjo or mandolin up. Also, it's great to have in the car when I take the wife is shopping. It means I don't go in the supermarket, stay in the car and pick.
Hope that helps.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by brother john

Hi,
Now that is funny, that's my demo(not Mollys video)
I did a bunch of videos showing fingerpicking on the Mando guitar as there were not a lot of demo's on the instrument and at the time, those that were posted were mainly just strumming. I think Gold Tone changed the spacing after the first batch to make playing easier, you will have to contact Gold Tone to confirm.
It's a unique instrument, in which I loved seeing what I could get out from it. If I was still playing out, I would definitely play it as a change from a listener hearing the guitar all the time. I think Ry Cooder also played one for a couple of tunes during a live show? If I was a recording musician, it would be used for sure.
I love mine, and although do not play it all the time, if I want to just have a change from the guitar, I would pick this, my banjo or mandolin up. Also, it's great to have in the car when I take the wife is shopping. It means I don't go in the supermarket, stay in the car and pick.
Hope that helps.

Thanks, it does help to have a fuller explanation. Thanks for doing the videos as your demos were the best I could easily locate that properly demonstrated the use as a melody instrument.

I'm considering something similar mostly as a texture instrument when I want to record something other than guitar. I already play mandolin and octave mandolin and even went so far as to custom build a "low tuned" mando (In between mando and mandola) that was better for vocal keys that I prefer.

Skip ahead to 40 seconds in to to hear how this sounds as an ensemble instrument:

[FrankHudson]

That Gryphon has always interested me. Yes, I appreciate and sometime play the jumbo 12-string tuned down as low as C thing, but I often capo up quite a ways on a conventional 12-string to get that faux mandolin or even harpsichord sound.

Never played the short-scale meant-to-be-tuned-higher instruments, but it just seems like it'd be a cool option.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

That Gryphon has always interested me. Yes, I appreciate and sometime play the jumbo 12-string tuned down as low as C thing, but I often capo up quite a ways on a conventional 12-string to get that faux mandolin or even harpsichord sound.

Never played the short-scale meant-to-be-tuned-higher instruments, but it just seems like it'd be a cool option.

Yes.

A standard capoed 12 string is somewhat unwieldy. The compact form factor of the alto 12 seems more appealing.

[The Growler]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

Hi all.
I did a search and there wasn't a lot of topics relating to this, so please feel free to jump in with opinions or personal experience with 12 string instruments that are sometimes referred to as "Alto" scale length, generally tuned a 3rd, 4th, or 5th above standard pitch.

An example would be the Avanti Gryphon (or Veillette Gryphon) 12 string, but other brands / scale length / tuning options are fine, too.

I build everything I play, so all the technical specifications are fine as discussion points, too. I play a variety of mando family instruments from standard mando to octave, so I'm really looking at this as a practical way to expand the range of what I have available to play.

Molly Tuttle demonstrates a Veillette Avanti Gyphon 12:

I have a Veillette 12 and it is a nice, well made guitar.

[DCCougar]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

...please feel free to jump in with opinions or personal experience with 12 string instruments that are sometimes referred to as "Alto" scale length, generally tuned a 3rd, 4th, or 5th above standard pitch.

Sounds mainly like a 12-string mandolin. Which is quite a bit different than a jumbo 12-string!

[Rudy4]

Thank you, Growler!

I also came across the Vintage (brand) Viator short scale 12 string with unison string pairs. Another entry in the market that demonstrates yet another take on the concept of the high tuned 12 string with unison string pairs:

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by DCCougar

Sounds mainly like a 12-string mandolin. Which is quite a bit different than a jumbo 12-string!

Yes indeed, the main idea behind the concept.

I played a full size 12 many years ago and didn't find it all that appealing, but oddly enough I enjoy and play mandolin family instruments.

I suppose my curiosity is based on how the "alto 12 with unison pairs" would compare to a mando family instrument. I play guitar primarily, but I also like fifth tuned instruments, so that's another point I'm pondering.

[David Eastwood]

I have an Emerald Amicus, built last year. As others have mentioned, it’s very similar in concept to the Veillette Gryphon - a 12-string, unison-tuned instrument with an 18” scale, tuned D-D in guitar-like intervals.

I love this little thing - it makes me smile whenever I play it. I rarely play with a pick, but it sounds lovely when I do - but it works remarkably well for finger-picking. It particularly shines if I tune the lowest pair down to C - the short scale makes it easy to accommodate the shift for alternate chord fingerings.

The tuning is interesting. The 18” scale corresponds, roughly, to the 6th fret on a 25.5” scale guitar, yet it’s tuned 4 frets higher, albeit with very light strings (.008-.042). Consequently, it feels ‘tight’ - but if I detune it to C-C, or B-B, while it feels softer, it also loses its sparkle, and makes me feel as if I’m missing the point. So, it stays in D-D (or drop-C), and continues to delight.

Interestingly, it was playing an Avante Gryphon that sowed the seeds for this purchase. The Amicus is a lot more expensive than the Avante, but rather less than a ‘real’ American-made Gryphon. But, I’m a certified Emerald fan boy, so the Amicus was it for me.