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  #1  
Old 05-30-2016, 08:48 PM
Horus Horus is offline
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Default Setting intonation with non-strobo tuner

Greetings,

I have a very basic tuner (Snark SN-1) and am wondering if it can be used to set intonation or I need to buy a strobo tuner (Peterson, etc.). Also, there is at least one strobo tuner for Android, but I tested it with a tuning fork and found to be not very precise.

Thanks
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Old 05-31-2016, 05:11 AM
murrmac123 murrmac123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horus View Post
Greetings,

I have a very basic tuner (Snark SN-1) and am wondering if it can be used to set intonation or I need to buy a strobo tuner (Peterson, etc.). Also, there is at least one strobo tuner for Android, but I tested it with a tuning fork and found to be not very precise.

Thanks
The short answer is no ... using a Snark to set intonation will not give satisfactory results. You need a strobe tuner, ideally an analog model, although a digital model will suffice at a pinch.
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Old 05-31-2016, 05:15 AM
Goodallboy Goodallboy is offline
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A Snark isn't accurate enough to set intonation.

You won't find one on a luthiers bench for setting intonation.

A side benefit to owning one for that purpose is that you can also have a more finely tuned guitar anytime you choose to tune with it.
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  #4  
Old 05-31-2016, 06:14 AM
LeightonBankes LeightonBankes is offline
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let's be realistic here. Assuming a company or someone built this guitar. Unless they screwed it up, it is going to be pretty close to right down the center of the saddle, with the b pushed back a little. If it is a standard design, straight nut (non compensated), 2 cents between open and 12 is how close you can get with a regular tuner (most are graduated at 2 or 2.5 cents). Even if you get it perfect, frets 1,2,3 are going to be a few cents sharp. Up the neck, it is going to be a few cents +- all the way up and down it.
Could I set the intonation with a regular tuner? Yes. Can you? I don't know. If you built this thing, .....better get a strobe tuner
Keep in mind, I'm an idiot.
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Old 05-31-2016, 08:19 AM
FluffyDog6 FluffyDog6 is offline
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Try PitchLab.

Android

Apple

Very accurate. $3




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Old 05-31-2016, 10:59 AM
Rodger Knox Rodger Knox is offline
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OK, if a Snark is good enough for tuning, why isn't it good enough for setting intonation? If the tuning is a little off, having the intonation correct doesn't help much. I'm not sure I believe that, but it seems to me to be a valid point.
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Old 05-31-2016, 01:34 PM
jpmist jpmist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodger Knox View Post
OK, if a Snark is good enough for tuning, why isn't it good enough for setting intonation? If the tuning is a little off, having the intonation correct doesn't help much. I'm not sure I believe that, but it seems to me to be a valid point.
Good point. To me the margin for error is greater on the Snark than it would be for a strobe tuner. It's a lot harder to see when you're a few cents off with a Snark. With a strobe the blocks are either still or they're not. That said, the Snark has it's place playing out but I wouldn't depend on it for recording.

And for what it's worth, my go to android phone tuner is the free Stroboscopic Tuner

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...d.strobe&hl=en

The Apple app is pricey but it has a lot of bells and whistles, was probably cheaper when I got it years ago. . .
http://www.katsurashareware.com/strobe/strobe.html
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Old 05-31-2016, 03:05 PM
Goodallboy Goodallboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodger Knox View Post
OK, if a Snark is good enough for tuning, why isn't it good enough for setting intonation? If the tuning is a little off, having the intonation correct doesn't help much. I'm not sure I believe that, but it seems to me to be a valid point.
Rodger, it's not good enough for me for tuning. I can still hear strings that are off when using a Snark. Since I play mostly alone in a quiet room I want it to be as precise as it can be and that is accomplished by either one of my two Petersons, a clip-on model or a Strobo-Stomp.

Perhaps if I were in a band situation I'd consider the Snark. So far, when playing with other instruments, even amplified, the Strobo-Stomp has been perfectly easy to use.
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Old 05-31-2016, 03:53 PM
Rodger Knox Rodger Knox is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodallboy View Post
Rodger, it's not good enough for me for tuning. I can still hear strings that are off when using a Snark.
Exactly! You are one of the people that can hear small differences, and the original assumption that a Snark is good enough for tuning is not valid, so the conclusion is not necessarily valid. The logic is good, and it leads to the conclusion that good enough varies from person to person, depending on their ability to distinguish small differences in pitch.

I can't hear differences that small, so plenty good for me is not nearly good enough for you. Of course, I'd like my guitar to be perfectly in tune, but it's got to be out pretty badly for me to notice it.
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Old 05-31-2016, 04:25 PM
Howard Klepper Howard Klepper is offline
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Accuracy is not much of an issue with electronic tuners, which almost all use the same kind of crystal to set a frequency reference. Where they do vary is in resolution. Virtual strobe tuners create an illusion of being actual strobe tuners by using a display that mimics the older StroboConn. In fact they mostly do have a higher resolution than a tuner such as the snark, but the practical usefulness of this or any strobe tuner used for the guitar is limited, as described in this nice article below:
https://psg.com/~dlamkins/lamkins-gu...ctronic-tuners [the author does at one point confuse resolution with precision, but no harm is done]

For the reasons the author gives, even a good strobe tuner that claims 0.1 cent accuracy can't resolve much better than one cent when used on a guitar, while most people's ear/brain system can't resolve better than 3-4 cents.

But the true situation is much worse than Lamkins describes. He leaves out the resolving power of the guitar's tuning machines. A one cent change in pitch is about 1/150 of a full rotation of a tuning button, and that assumes perfectly cut and perfectly meshing gears. Can the fingers turning that button work finer than that? Also, that would be with an ideal, frictionless nut--I can find nothing on the net that reports tests showing how accurately a tuning machine can work with real strings and nuts, but my experience is that the nut make continuous pitch change at the same rate hard to achieve.

And that leaves out one of the weakest links in the tuning system, which is player technique. By pressing at all to the side, or too hard on a string, a player can easily push the pitch off by a couple of cents.

I gather that the display on the Snark SN-8 "Super tight" is supposed to be able to resolve one cent +-. If you can set intonation at the nut and saddle that accurately (and good luck with that, given the tools and materials that you will be using on an acoustic guitar), you have nothing more to gain as a player with a strobe or virtual strobe, even if you have ears extraordinary enough to hear a cent of pitch difference.
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Last edited by Howard Klepper; 05-31-2016 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 05-31-2016, 04:54 PM
tomiv9 tomiv9 is offline
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So are u saying a snark is fine Howard? I've never tried to adjust my intonation on an acoustic, the compensated saddle usually works fine and I don't wanna mess with sanding new angles on the top of it. But for my electrics I've used all sorts of tuners to adjust intonation. I figure if the tuner is good enough for me to tune the string open, why can't I use it to tune at the 12th, and make tweaks accordingly.
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Old 05-31-2016, 06:41 PM
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My question is, should you even try to mess with the intonation of a guitar that was built properly? And if you do, how much better can you reasonably hope to get it? My guess is very little, if at all.

As Howard Klepper pointed out, there are many variables. Also the very nature of the guitar itself makes perfection impossible.
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Old 05-31-2016, 07:30 PM
Goodallboy Goodallboy is offline
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I have a skilled luthier make any changes to my guitar nut or saddle and unless you are skilled, my advice would be to leave both alone.

I adjust the intonation on my electric guitars on a regular basis, with a strobe tuner.

The article listed was more opinion than fact so you can choose to believe it or not. The subject has been roundly debated for years.

If I can hear the notes strings out of tune after using a cheap tuner, then I need a more accurate one. If you can't, I guess that's a "lucky" break for you. It will never be more cut and dried than that.
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Old 06-01-2016, 09:49 AM
mercy mercy is offline
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Theres something weve ignored here. The tuner will be accurate but your ear will think it is not so you sweeten it a bit. Its not the tuners that are off but our ears. I personally do not like Snarks. Ive had several but the tuner I have now works very well and is more accurate than my ear.
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Old 06-01-2016, 11:32 AM
MC5C MC5C is offline
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I'm almost afraid to confess that I set intonation with my ears, simple harmonic and fretted note at 12th fret. If it's close enough that I can't tell the difference, then I call it good to go. The guitar is always out of tune anyway, what with equal temperament and all, so my theory is that if I can't tell the difference there is no difference. I sometimes check with fancy tuners, but they always say it's spot on, so I mostly don't bother.
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