Poll – Has your Martin had binding problems?

[Direstrats]

Originally Posted by Pdubs76

Great. Now I’m convinced that the binding will separate on my HD28.

It just seems that recent binding separation up to 2022 is ivoroid or tortoise, not the off white Boltaron.

Im guessing thats why in 2022 they changed the 18 series and the 21 series to Black Boltaron ?

Im hoping its black ABS we are seeing with the use of bottled glue again in 8.49 below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VligHnYQk6Q&t=908s

[BluesKing777]

Originally Posted by Direstrats

It just seems that recent binding separation up to 2022 is ivoroid or tortoise, not the off white Boltaron.

Im guessing thats why in 2022 they changed the 18 series and the 21 series to Black Boltaron ?

Im hoping its black ABS we are seeing with the use of bottled glue again in 8.49 below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VligHnYQk6Q&t=908s

Like I said earlier, my 3 offenders had white, black, tortoise.....

And somebody mentioned rebinding the whole guitar with wood binding but elsewhere it has been mentioned that it costs a bomb including a full refinish....

My last standing Martin from the offending time frame is my CEO7...repaired 4 waists......if I get some Lotto, it will be rebound with real ebony binding and painted gloss black with black pickguard like the new Gibson Custom Shop Ebony series!! That will trick the experts!

BluesKing777.

[jimmy bookout]

Originally Posted by BluesKing777

Like I said earlier, my 3 offenders had white, black, tortoise.....

And somebody mentioned rebinding the whole guitar with wood binding but elsewhere it has been mentioned that it costs a bomb including a full refinish....

My last standing Martin from the offending time frame is my CEO7...repaired 4 waists......if I get some Lotto, it will be rebound with real ebony binding and painted gloss black with black pickguard like the new Gibson Custom Shop Ebony series!! That will trick the experts!

BluesKing777.

For the money you'd spend getting a CEO-7 re-bound with ebony PLUS re-finished, you could buy a luthier built guitar!
JMHO

[BluesKing777]

Hey Moderators.....this thread should be pinned to the top of the board.....or someone will start the same question next week!

BluesKing777.

[Kh1967]

I am always fascinated by these threads and the directions they take. From pointing out the flaws in the poll, to people refusing to buy another Martin because they experienced issues, the input provides some interesting reading.

From my perspective, Martin does seem to have some issues with binding separation. It is easily read about here, and on other guitar forums. At its simplest level, there is some sort of problem and how Martin responds is up to them, just as much as buyers can continue to support Martin with purchases, or not. We will probably never reach consensus on how big the problem, or what responsibility Martin has, and how it should be handled.

What continually raises my eyebrow is why I don’t read about this issue with other large builders - Taylor, and Gibson for example. Why is that? That is the real issue for me. I am guessing there are a handful of glue and binding manufacturers, not hundreds. I would then think there is overlap from suppliers, and other builders are using the same materials as Martin?

Maybe I am naive about the number of glue and binding manufacturers that actually exist?

[dnf777]

Let me put this out there. Plastic (micarta, I believe) heel cap on a 2012 Tweedy OO-17, now on its THIRD separation, after authÂ’d repairs. (Heated, stretched, Ca glue)

This is not the binding separation, but obvious plastic shrinkage of the heel cap, which was once perfectly flush with the heel, now about 1 or 2 mm shy! Kept in 45% humid room with multiple other guitars without issues. (Except the OM-21)

[TheGITM]

Originally Posted by BluesKing777

Hey Moderators.....this thread should be pinned to the top of the board.....or someone will start the same question next week!

BluesKing777.

Couldn't let it die, could you?

[kizz]

Originally Posted by dnf777

Let me put this out there. Plastic (micarta, I believe) heel cap on a 2012 Tweedy OO-17, now on its THIRD separation, after authÂ’d repairs. (Heated, stretched, Ca glue)

This is not the binding separation, but obvious plastic shrinkage of the heel cap, which was once perfectly flush with the heel, now about 1 or 2 mm shy! Kept in 45% humid room with multiple other guitars without issues. (Except the OM-21)

Plastic shrinks when heated, so after 3 times of heating you may have part of the explanation. I still think it's about bad glue. Again, I want to say that I in no way sympathize with Martin in this case, but I also often think about how many people appear in threads like this one who are in some way partly to blame for these binding problems perhaps having left the guitar for a while in the sun or otherwise exposing it to heat or low humidity. It may also have happened in the shipment or it has been repaired badly either at the luthier or at home and I understand that Martin cannot take responsibility for such circumstances.

[dnf777]

Originally Posted by kizz

Plastic shrinks when heated, so after 3 times of heating you may have part of the explanation. I still think it's about bad glue. Again, I want to say that I in no way sympathize with Martin in this case, but I also often think about how many people appear in threads like this one who are in some way partly to blame for these binding problems perhaps having left the guitar for a while in the sun or otherwise exposing it to heat or low humidity. It may also have happened in the shipment or it has been repaired badly either at the luthier or at home and I understand that Martin cannot take responsibility for such circumstances.

Well, the heel cap has never been heated. The guitar has never left my house, but has been kept in 45-55% humidity all its life. But we’re beating a dead horse here. I think these on-going threads on martin binding are usefel in establishing if its still happening on later models, not rehashing from the early 2000s. Or, pray tell, a martin rep actually weighs in…

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by Kh1967

I am always fascinated by these threads and the directions they take. From pointing out the flaws in the poll, to people refusing to buy another Martin because they experienced issues, the input provides some interesting reading.

From my perspective, Martin does seem to have some issues with binding separation. It is easily read about here, and on other guitar forums. At its simplest level, there is some sort of problem and how Martin responds is up to them, just as much as buyers can continue to support Martin with purchases, or not. We will probably never reach consensus on how big the problem, or what responsibility Martin has, and how it should be handled.

What continually raises my eyebrow is why I don’t read about this issue with other large builders - Taylor, and Gibson for example. Why is that? That is the real issue for me. I am guessing there are a handful of glue and binding manufacturers, not hundreds. I would then think there is overlap from suppliers, and other builders are using the same materials as Martin?

Maybe I am naive about the number of glue and binding manufacturers that actually exist?

Since Martin hasn’t offered any official guidance on the cause, there’s a lot of speculation. There are several very experienced luthiers and industry professionals who participate more frequently in similar discussions on the UMGF, and from what I understand, at least part of the problem stems from the type of plastic that Martin uses. Again, from what I’ve read, the plastic that has the most prevalent occurrence of the issue is celluloid plastic, which tends to shrink more than ABS plastic. Martin has used more stable plastics in the past (Boltaron?), but going back to the plastic Martin used when they originally switched from ivory (for white binding) and wood (for dark binding), it was celluloid. It seems a big part of the choice is tradition.

I’ve pointed out in the past a listing for a guitar built by TJ Thompson that sold for $20k, and the guitar had loose binding. That’s probably an exceedingly rare occurrence, but I bet the binding was celluloid.

Originally Posted by kizz

Plastic shrinks when heated, so after 3 times of heating you may have part of the explanation. I still think it's about bad glue. Again, I want to say that I in no way sympathize with Martin in this case, but I also often think about how many people appear in threads like this one who are in some way partly to blame for these binding problems perhaps having left the guitar for a while in the sun or otherwise exposing it to heat or low humidity. It may also have happened in the shipment or it has been repaired badly either at the luthier or at home and I understand that Martin cannot take responsibility for such circumstances.

I highly doubt that there’s anything people can do to prevent it. As I mentioned previously, out of 10 Martins with binding that I own that were built in the last dozen years or so, only one has experienced the issue so far. The guitars are all being kept in virtually identical conditions. Someone spculated upthread or in another thread that perhaps keeping the guitar in its case could exacerbate the issue. What I do know is that when Martin approves a routine warranty repair for loose binding, environmental considerations aren’t part of the discussion.

[kizz]

Originally Posted by dnf777

Well, the heel cap has never been heated. The guitar has never left my house, but has been kept in 45-55% humidity all its life. But we’re beating a dead horse here. I think these on-going threads on martin binding are usefel in establishing if its still happening on later models, not rehashing from the early 2000s. Or, pray tell, a martin rep actually weighs in…

You are right, I also believe that the problem is being made into something bigger than it is, however, I have sympathy for those it happens to, but I doubt that a Martin rep will come up with an explanation in here, then it would have happened. However, it is rumored that they changed the glue during that period and so we can keep guessing...glue or plastic :-) Right now there are 109 out of 218 voters who have experienced the problem here and we are talking a decade and probably a thousand of Martin owners here...

[Kh1967]

Originally Posted by sinistral

Since Martin hasn’t offered any official guidance on the cause, there’s a lot of speculation. There are several very experienced luthiers and industry professionals who participate more frequently in similar discussions on the UMGF, and from what I understand, at least part of the problem stems from the type of plastic that Martin uses. Again, from what I’ve read, the plastic that has the most prevalent occurrence of the issue is celluloid plastic, which tends to shrink more than ABS plastic. Martin has used more stable plastics in the past (Boltaron?), but going back to the plastic Martin used when they originally switched from ivory (for white binding) and wood (for dark binding), it was celluloid. It seems a big part of the choice is tradition.

I’ve pointed out in the past a listing for a guitar built by TJ Thompson that sold for $20k, and the guitar had loose binding. That’s probably an exceedingly rare occurrence, but I bet the binding was celluloid.



I highly doubt that there’s anything people can do to prevent it. As I mentioned previously, out of 10 Martins with binding that I own that were built in the last dozen years or so, only one has experienced the issue so far. The guitars are all being kept in virtually identical conditions. Someone spculated upthread or in another thread that perhaps keeping the guitar in its case could exacerbate the issue. What I do know is that when Martin approves a routine warranty repair for loose binding, environmental considerations aren’t part of the discussion.

Thank you for that additional information. Much appreciated.

[brancher]

Wow, is this thing still alive??? Well, here's my two cents. Martin has a problem with binding (my D18 started peeling within 18 mos, humidified music room, TLC, all the stuff). Martin is aware, and they eventually fixed mine under warranty. Of course, I had to beat them up for two weeks before they accepted it for repair.

And, I have said several times I wouldn't buy another Martin because of this and because of the Martin approach - 'it must be your fault and not ours'. But the truth is, my 18 is the finest sounding guitar I own or have played ever. The neck feel, the woody low end, the resonance, and the Martin sound - hard to match. And although it is fun for me to go after Martin..... if a great deal on a 000-28, D28, CEO, etc, came by, I'd probably drop everything and buy it.....


And that's how fickle I am.... (and you, too, probably...).
As usual, ymmv.

[massimo]

I asked this above, with no answers. Maybe some of you can help
How many guitars do Martin make per year approximately? How many in the 2012-2020 period?
What percentage of their guitars have non-wood binding? I guess the vast majority of their models, in all price ranges.

[kizz]

Originally Posted by massimo

I asked this above, with no answers. Maybe some of you can help
How many guitars do Martin make per year approximately? How many in the 2012-2020 period?
What percentage of their guitars have non-wood binding? I guess the vast majority of their models, in all price ranges.

They probably made in the region of 700,000 - 1 million in that period and close to the majority with bindings.